Indiana to allow shooting at cops

[stevo]

I just feel this law will have some individuals interpreting it wrong. They will hear it from a friend "hey did hear you can shoot the police if you feel they entered your house unlawfully." "oh really, well the police should never be in my house so any entry is unlawful in my eyes."

I think this law will open this type of mentality and there will be a blood bath as a result. There are a lot of ignorant people out there and when I say that I don't mean anyone on this website.

So, your response is that the law is bad because ignorant people may misinterpret it, and because of those ignorant people, smart, law-abiding citizens should continue to be victimized?
Gotcha .

Stevo

[Forever_frost]

I just feel this law will have some individuals interpreting it wrong. They will hear it from a friend "hey did hear you can shoot the police if you feel they entered your house unlawfully." "oh really, well the police should never be in my house so any entry is unlawful in my eyes."

I think this law will open this type of mentality and there will be a blood bath as a result. There are a lot of ignorant people out there and when I say that I don't mean anyone on this website.

Okay, let's try to make you see. What are you going to do if a group of people kick in your door dressed in black with guns drawn yelling at you?

[hustleman]

And we just 'feel' that the LEO mentality puts citizens at risk as has been repeatedly shown by the execution of family pets, destruction of private property without warrant, in one instance, chainsawing through a door because they had the address wrong, and so forth. You kick in tha tdoor knowing that you're wearing a badge and have backup. The citizen inside doesn't have that. They have them and whatever is at hand. You're busting through the door without cause? I fully expect every one of those intruders to take one in the head.

If police don't break the law and kick in innocent civilians doors, there's nothing to worry about right? I mean, if you're not breaking the law, this doesn't apply to you. Isn't that the arguement?

I'm understand yours and everyone's argument about the ability to defend yourself and your home. I agree that, without question. My only concern is what I stated earlier. Ignorant peoples interpretation of this law as "I don't want contact with police therefore it is unlawful for them to enter my house correct warrant,correct address or not."

Guys: I'm sold on the discussion of if LE messes up and storms the wrong house you have the right to return fire if faced with deadly force. I get everyones argument about wanting to be legitimate in defending yourself.

[ceyko]

I'm understand yours and everyone's argument about the ability to defend yourself and your home. I agree that, without question. My only concern is what I stated earlier. Ignorant peoples interpretation of this law as "I don't want contact with police therefore it is unlawful for them to enter my house correct warrant,correct address or not."

Guys: I'm sold on the discussion of if LE messes up and storms the wrong house you have the right to return fire if faced with deadly force. I get everyones argument about wanting to be legitimate in defending yourself.

From my perspective it's nice having a law to protect the citizen who is in the right, because it's going to happen either way. Meaning, if a scumbag wants to shoot the po-po the scumbag is going to shoot. This law changes nothing for lawful home entries/whatever you want to call them. It only makes it so a citizen who is on the bad end of the stick has some protection after the fact.

Cause I'm not going to lie, I'll feel bad for shooting a bad guy breaking into my home. I'll certainly not be partying if I shot a cop with incompetent leadership doing his/her job. However, that's why I also feel that from the ground up, everyone needs to review any documentation/information. Because someone above you made a mistake, it may put you in a bad situation. Cause if you/your partners shot back and killed an innocent citizen - I'd sure hope you'd feel bad too. (Or their dog..whatever it maybe)

[hustleman]

How is it you aren't entering a house to kill, but you are entering with a gun drawn? And furthermore, my beef isn't with served warrants. I fully support the system in place, when it's used properly. The beef I have is with no-knock warrants, because, to my mind, those aren't actually served. How am I to determine that something wasn't cooked up post-hoc to cover you?

EDIT: I'd like to mention that, in general, the police have my support and cooperation. I am not a violent man, and do not want to use weapons on other human beings. If that choice is taken away from me unjustly, though, I should have a legal recourse to defend myself. I should not be penalized for surviving an unlawful attack from another person or group of persons, regardless of their legal status. Further, their legal status should not afford them the right to abuse me or my household in any way. What isn't clear about that perspective?

Make sense. I agree. I only fear the wrong interpretation of the law. You're right my fear should not tie the hands of good law abiding citizens. I just see a bigger picture due to all the idiots I come in contact with daily. I can't tell you enough how people tell me what the law is because they heard something a friend or relative told them and how they interpreted it wrong. But in the end I agree with you. I should not let my fears impede your ability to feel safe in your home.

[YALE]

Make sense. I agree. I only fear the wrong interpretation of the law. You're right my fear should not tie the hands of good law abiding citizens. I just see a bigger picture due to all the idiots I come in contact with daily. I can't tell you enough how people tell me what the law is because they heard something a friend or relative told them and how they interpreted it wrong. But in the end I agree with you. I should not let my fears impede your ability to feel safe in your home.

That works both ways, brother. You should feel safe in your home, too. Stay safe out there.

[DON SVO]

My opinion is that this legislature was allowed for 2 reasons:

1. The kick-door robberies happen often, and impersonating the police has been reported in a LOT of them. Without documentation, though, how can you be sure? By then it's too late if it's the criminal vermin, you're either dead or robbed. It makes a home owner feel better about leveling that 12ga when he/she KNOWS the police have no business kicking in their door: it's most likely a criminal.

2. The other part is that the 2 groups doing kick-doors... police and bad guys... now realize that the law-abiding ciziten can rightfully defend themself from such an incident. Bad guys using the 'police' cover to gain advantage now have no cover and are subject to instantaneous waves of buck shot, hollow points and go fuck yourself. I think it'll deter a lot of criminals as well as make sure the PD crosses Ts and dots Is. No sargeant wants to have to tell the family of one of his men "yeah, John's dead because I authorized the wrong address." and also open the department up to civil litigation.

[Forever_frost]

Make sense. I agree. I only fear the wrong interpretation of the law. You're right my fear should not tie the hands of good law abiding citizens. I just see a bigger picture due to all the idiots I come in contact with daily. I can't tell you enough how people tell me what the law is because they heard something a friend or relative told them and how they interpreted it wrong. But in the end I agree with you. I should not let my fears impede your ability to feel safe in your home.

And what of cops with a wrong interpretation of their powers? What protects us from them? You want protection from unlawfully entering into a private residence, guns drawn and causing, if not physical, then psychological and property damage. So copper, what protects us from YOU?


I'm not aiming this at you Hustle. I am aiming this at every cop who doesn't check an address, to the FBI agents who chainsawed through a citizen's door because they could (and got the wrong address), cops who shoot dogs in their own homes (and the cop was at the wrong address) and a litany of other offenses. It's about time someone said "wait, cops need to stop this and have so many protections on them it's time to at least attempt at showing parity."

[Forever_frost]

My opinion is that this legislature was allowed for 2 reasons:

1. The kick-door robberies happen often, and impersonating the police has been reported in a LOT of them. Without documentation, though, how can you be sure? By then it's too late if it's the criminal vermin, you're either dead or robbed. It makes a home owner feel better about leveling that 12ga when he/she KNOWS the police have no business kicking in their door: it's most likely a criminal.

2. The other part is that the 2 groups doing kick-doors... police and bad guys... now realize that the law-abiding ciziten can rightfully defend themself from such an incident. Bad guys using the 'police' cover to gain advantage now have no cover and are subject to instantaneous waves of buck shot, hollow points and go fuck yourself. I think it'll deter a lot of criminals as well as make sure the PD crosses Ts and dots Is. No sargeant wants to have to tell the family of one of his men "yeah, John's dead because I authorized the wrong address." and also open the department up to civil litigation.

Or have to deal with "Well, we gave our officers paramilitary training and they fucked up the house number and walked in on a SF guy with ACTUAL military training and got their asses handed to them. The citizen was in the right, we were in the wrong" and the citizen gets counseling on the trauma that was just inflicted by the police department making them defend themselves and, since the guy just killed a bunch of police (in the right and legally) he's now going to have to move because every cop left will want his head

[DON SVO]

Or have to deal with "Well, we gave our officers paramilitary training and they fucked up the house number and walked in on a SF guy with ACTUAL military training and got their asses handed to them. The citizen was in the right, we were in the wrong" and the citizen gets counseling on the trauma that was just inflicted by the police department making them defend themselves and, since the guy just killed a bunch of police (in the right and legally) he's now going to have to move because every cop left will want his head

... if it keeps good cops serving a warrant that their superiors SNAFUd from dying, and allowing the common man to fire on people kicking in his door without fearing he might shoot the PD, I'm all for it. One hand washes the other, it's time to level the field a bit.

[hustleman]

And what of cops with a wrong interpretation of their powers? What protects us from them? You want protection from unlawfully entering into a private residence, guns drawn and causing, if not physical, then psychological and property damage. So copper, what protects us from YOU?


I'm not aiming this at you Hustle. I am aiming this at every cop who doesn't check an address, to the FBI agents who chainsawed through a citizen's door because they could (and got the wrong address), cops who shoot dogs in their own homes (and the cop was at the wrong address) and a litany of other offenses. It's about time someone said "wait, cops need to stop this and have so many protections on them it's time to at least attempt at showing parity."

They should face the consequences. My thoughts are only to limit blood shed. I understand everyone concern and after thinking more about it and re-reading the legislation I agree with the law.

[Forever_frost]

They should face the consequences. My thoughts are only to limit blood shed. I understand everyone concern and after thinking more about it and re-reading the legislation I agree with the law.

Now that is good to hear. Thank you for reading up on it and going with the 'protect' part of the signing on the car. If only more officers actually realized they are public servants and are paid to put their lives on the line to protect citizens, not to take rights and property from said citizens.


Even though we don't have the law, if you put a chainsaw through my door, I'm putting round THROUGH the door and wall adjacent.

[mikec]

One thing not yet touched upon is the majority of no knock door kickers are served on drug suspects, in an attempt to get the dope before it's flushed I guess. In that none of us are into that crap it only solidifies the thought that it would be a bad guy impersonating a cop. No?

[GhostTX]

One thing not yet touched upon is the majority of no knock door kickers are served on drug suspects, in an attempt to get the dope before it's flushed I guess. In that none of us are into that crap it only solidifies the thought that it would be a bad guy impersonating a cop. No?

Not really..

The officers, dressed in plainclothes, approached the house at about seven in the evening.[9] Officers Gary Smith, Gregg Junnier, and Arthur Tesler; who were wearing bulletproof vests and carrying riot shields when they entered the home,[10] announced themselves after opening the door but before entering the house, according to police.[11] Johnston fired a gun after police forced open the door.[9] It was later determined that Johnston fired one shot from an old pistol, and none of the officers were hit by that bullet.[12] The police officers fired a total of 39 shots, five or six of which hit Johnston.[13][14][15] Police injuries sustained in the raid were due to friendly fire and were not from Johnston's gun. The officers were hit in the arm, thigh, and shoulder respectively; they were treated at the hospital.[9]
Prosecutors later said that Smith handcuffed Johnston as she was dying.[16] Johnston was pronounced dead at the scene.[17] Prosecutors accused one of the officers of planting three bags of marijuana in the house as an attempted cover-up after no drugs were found in the house.[4] Smith later admitted to having planted the drugs.[3][6] They had been found in an unrelated case earlier that day.[7] Prosecutors also accused Smith of calling Alex White after the shooting and telling the informant to say he had bought crack cocaine at Johnston's house.[16] According to court filings, before talking to the homicide detective, the three officers involved in the shooting got together to get their stories straight.[7]
Johnston lived alone and had lived in that house for about 17 years.[9][18] Her house was in a crime-ridden neighborhood in west Atlanta.[16] People in the neighborhood speculated that the police had the wrong person, but police denied that they had had the wrong house.[9] Neighbors and family said that Johnston kept a "rusty revolver" for self-defense; another elderly woman in her neighborhood had recently been raped, and drug dealing was common.[11] In the year before her murder, Johnston had installed extra locks and burglar bars.[19]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Johnston_shooting

[mikec]

Not really..


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Johnston_shooting

That's just flat out scary.