Uncle Ted meets bummers goons

[Forever_frost]

Hey buddy, remind me again, wasn't the Continental Army in the Revolution a volunteer army? Wasn't their militia also a volunteer militia?

Yes, they were.


No "draft cards" to burn, Sir.

Actually, the Militia Act of 1792 kind of did away with that volunteer idea. You were required to sign up with the militia, keep yourself physically capable of serving and providing yourself equipment. No, it wasn't a completely volunteer Army. The military drafted farmers and landowners when they needed to fill their ranks.

http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/revolutionarywar/articles/americanrevolution.aspx

[Forever_frost]

frost. man, you are not making very valid points. you dont like draft dodgers. ok cool.

No, I really don't like draft dodgers. I know two off the top of my head. Scumbag cowards. Their cowardice meant that someone else had to pay the price that was asked of them. They enjoy freedoms that not only did they not pay for, but through their cowardice, forced someone else to pay for them.

You do not dodge drafts. You either remove the government or leave. That's your choices. If you duck the draft you should be forever exiled or executed.

[Forever_frost]

Again, you speak of Liberty, yet you did not say HOW our liberty was threatened in any of the wars I mentioned. A bunch of "might" and "thought", but no direct threat to our sovereignty of liberty. Tell me what Tyranny was being forced upon us by these countries.

Going to war in defense of American liberty is every citizen's duty, and if another hitler tries to invade our soil, I expect every man, woman, and child able to hold a rifle to be fighting for their freedom. Going to war to police a world who doesn't want to be helped, and is not our soil, is not our duty.

This is the crux of Tali's and my argmuent, and you aren't getting it.

I'm not saying I agree with the decisions to go to war. I'm not saying I agree with Vietnam. I'm saying if you're called, you go. If you don't want to go, then you forfeit your right to call yourself an American and should be cast out. Unless of course you remove those who called you to the war you disagree with. The Constitution and Declaration absolutely allows that.

[matts5.0]

lol so if i dont want to go to war i assassinate the president?

[talisman]

Right because that actually did anything. If burning those cards did dick, then we'd not have been in any wars similar to that one. Oh wait.. As it has always been you have two choices, and Jefferson and our founders, hell our very Constitution and Declaration of Independence agree with me. If you do not like what our leaders do, disagree with their decisions, you can either A) vote them out or B) remove them by force. You do NOT have the right to abandon a call to service because you don't agree with the action. Either remove the bad actors by vote or by force.

Either way, and again, the Founders speak clearly about this: You're going to bleed. And you should. You only value something if you bleed for it. If you sacrifice for it.

You DO have that right, though. How more obvious can it be? 200,000 people excersised that right, and then were given amnesty for it. Just because it doesn't say somewhere "You can or can't do this" doesn't mean you can or can't do it. It DID accomplish something. How many times has the selective service been enacted since Vietnam?

There are an INFINITE number of choices, as with all other aspects of life. Just because you only see black and white doesn't mean that is the way the rest of this country lives it lives.

I didn't say one way. I said vote or form a revolution. Your choice.

Putting a +1 in front of what I wrote doesn't make you any more right. Its laughable that you would sit there and try and enact constraints on a country dealing with its increasingly draconian and nanny government by requiring its citizens to abandon the fact that it is our very nature to give authority the finger and that anarchy and revolution is ingrained in our DNA from over 200 years ago. You can't "play fair" in an unfair system, the house always wins. It is honestly boggling my mind that I'm having to explain this to you.

[Forever_frost]

lol so if i dont want to go to war i assassinate the president?

Never said assassinate. I said remove and replace. Unlike some, you won't catch me saying to assassinate anyone.

[sc281]

Actually, the Militia Act of 1792 kind of did away with that volunteer idea. You were required to sign up with the militia, keep yourself physically capable of serving and providing yourself equipment. No, it wasn't a completely volunteer Army. The military drafted farmers and landowners when they needed to fill their ranks.

http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com...evolution.aspx

Remind me, 1792 came before or after 1776?

Your link supports my statement that they were volunteers.

Second paragraph:

Shy's focus of his thesis the American soldiers during the American Revolution as a unique collection of volunteer soldiers that fought either part-time in the militias or fought full time in the Continental Army.

Fifth paragraph:

John Shy's study of the American perspective of enlisted soldier consisted of two forms of volunteer, either militia or continental soldier; both are didactic in their difference. Even though America drafted some soldiers into the army, this was a small number that it did not affect the greater number of enlisted troops.

[sc281]

I'm not saying I agree with the decisions to go to war. I'm not saying I agree with Vietnam. I'm saying if you're called, you go. If you don't want to go, then you forfeit your right to call yourself an American and should be cast out. Unless of course you remove those who called you to the war you disagree with. The Constitution and Declaration absolutely allows that.

Actually Sir. We have the freedom to CHOOSE whether we want to go or not. The only reason we now have that CHOICE is because 200,000 people broke a law they believed unjust in order to change it.

Do I like any of the draft dodgers? I don't know any, but if they were dodging out of cowardice, then I wouldn't. If they did it because they didn't believe that some third world country could oppress our freedoms in any way, and were willing to go to jail to prove their point, then I'd probably like em.

EDIT: didn't see Tali address it already..

You DO have that right, though. How more obvious can it be? 200,000 people excersised that right, and then were given amnesty for it. Just because it doesn't say somewhere "You can or can't do this" doesn't mean you can or can't do it. It DID accomplish something. How many times has the selective service been enacted since Vietnam?

[Forever_frost]

Colonial to 1861

In colonial times, the Thirteen Colonies used a militia system for defense. Colonial militia laws—and after independence those of the United States and the various states—required able-bodied males to enroll in the militia, to undergo a minimum of military training, and to serve for limited periods of time in war or emergency. This earliest form of conscription involved selective drafts of militiamen for service in particular campaigns. Following this system in its essentials, the Continental Congress in 1778 recommended that the states draft men from their militias for one year's service in the Continental army; this first national conscription was irregularly applied and failed to fill the Continental ranks.

For long-term operations, conscription was occasionally used when volunteers or paid substitutes were insufficient to raise the needed manpower. During the American Revolutionary War, the states sometimes drafted men for militia duty or to fill state Continental Army units, but the central government did not have the authority to conscript. President James Madison and his Secretary of War James Monroe unsuccessfully attempted to create a national draft of 40,000 men during the War of 1812.[3] This proposal was fiercely criticized on the Senate floor by legendary Massachusetts Senator Daniel Webster in "one of [his] most eloquent efforts."[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_States

And on another note: I do want to apologize for something today. I've been looking for a fight all day and I'm pretty sure I'm not engaging in rational discussion. My medications are to be readjusted on the 30th so I'm starting to get frayed around the edges

[talisman]

Actually Sir. We have the freedom to CHOOSE whether we want to go or not. The only reason we now have that CHOICE is because 200,000 people broke the law they believed unjust in order to change it.

Do I like any of the draft dodgers? I don't know any, but if they were dodging out of cowardice, then I wouldn't. If they did it because they didn't believe that some third world country could oppress our freedoms in any way, and were willing to go to jail to prove their point, then I'd probably like em.

Exactly. My father and uncle were in Vietnam, but were regular enlisted well before the war. I'm going to ask my dad his opinion on all this when I go down to Corpus next month.

[talisman]

And on another note: I do want to apologize for something today. I've been looking for a fight all day and I'm pretty sure I'm not engaging in rational discussion. My medications are to be readjusted on the 30th so I'm starting to get frayed around the edges

LOL, no worries man, good of you to say that. I will say that I understand WHY you would look unfavorably on draft dodgers after your own service, but I don't think you are articulating your feelings in a logical way.

[sc281]

Colonial to 1861

In colonial times, the Thirteen Colonies used a militia system for defense. Colonial militia laws—and after independence those of the United States and the various states—required able-bodied males to enroll in the militia, to undergo a minimum of military training, and to serve for limited periods of time in war or emergency. This earliest form of conscription involved selective drafts of militiamen for service in particular campaigns. Following this system in its essentials, the Continental Congress in 1778 recommended that the states draft men from their militias for one year's service in the Continental army; this first national conscription was irregularly applied and failed to fill the Continental ranks.

For long-term operations, conscription was occasionally used when volunteers or paid substitutes were insufficient to raise the needed manpower. During the American Revolutionary War, the states sometimes drafted men for militia duty or to fill state Continental Army units, but the central government did not have the authority to conscript. President James Madison and his Secretary of War James Monroe unsuccessfully attempted to create a national draft of 40,000 men during the War of 1812.[3] This proposal was fiercely criticized on the Senate floor by legendary Massachusetts Senator Daniel Webster in "one of [his] most eloquent efforts."[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_States

And on another note: I do want to apologize for something today. I've been looking for a fight all day and I'm pretty sure I'm not engaging in rational discussion. My medications are to be readjusted on the 30th so I'm starting to get frayed around the edges

You also aren't reading your own citations...See bold.


All jackass remarks aside, I understand your love of country, but you have to understand that the use of tyranny to take someone's freedom to choose in order to fight for freedom from tyranny, is no freedom worth defending and is no freedom at all.

[Forever_frost]

LOL, no worries man, good of you to say that. I will say that I understand WHY you would look unfavorably on draft dodgers after your own service, but I don't think you are articulating your feelings in a logical way.

Thanks Tali. There are times I don't. I've gone back and reread my posts and have seen the steady unwraveling as this goes.

[Forever_frost]

You also aren't reading your own citations...See bold.

I did. That was 1861. Since then, the Supreme Court has upheld the constitutionality of the federal government calling up a draft and, something I didn't know, there is a special draft for health care providers. On December 1, 1989, Congress ordered the Selective Service System to put in place a system capable of drafting "persons qualified for practice or employment in a health care and professional occupation", if such a special-skills draft should be ordered by Congress.[66] In response, Selective Service published plans for the "Health Care Personnel Delivery System " (HCPDS) in 1989 and has had them ready ever since. The concept underwent a preliminary field exercise in Fiscal Year 1998, followed by a more extensive nationwide readiness exercise in Fiscal Year 1999. The HCPDS plans include women and men ages 20–54 in 57 different job categories.[67] As of May 2003, the Defense Department has said the most likely form of draft is a special skills draft, probably of health care workers.[68]

[talisman]

Thanks Tali. There are times I don't. I've gone back and reread my posts and have seen the steady unwraveling as this goes.

..and just to add my own thoughts to that, I don't feel forced enlistment into the service has ANY place in a free society. I wouldn't want to be the one enlisted man going into battle with 15 people beside me who were forced to be there through legislation instead of believing in what they were doing. The entire scenario reeks of idiocy from a basic psychological point on every single level.