Justices Question Obamacare Mandate

[line-em-up]

...

It is b.s. and even Obama knows it. The fact is, forcing everyone to get healthcare will not make healthcare less expensive. Because now, people who previously couldn't get healthcare because they have a chronic illness, will now be jacking the price up for everyone else (prices are already rising). Call me stupid, but I wouldn't want to pay for someone elses illness when I rarely go to the hospital or the doctor ( literally been twice in my life). I do have healthcare now from my work, but 3 of my brothers do not. They find it cheaper to pay the doctor as they go, seeing as they never go.

That's exactly what is happening in California. Only 1/7 of the expected number of people have signed up for the high risk pools and the claims per person cost 3 times more than were forecast. So, that means the insurance liability for individuals is 21 times higher than expected. Yea, right. It will make insurance more affordable. Isn't that what they said?

[Vertnut]

That's exactly what is happening in California. Only 1/7 of the expected number of people have signed up for the high risk pools and the claims per person cost 3 times more than were forecast. So, that means the insurance liability for individuals is 21 times higher than expected. Yea, right. It will make insurance more affordable. Isn't that what they said?

These assholes coming up with healthcare is like me building an airplane...it might fly, but I'm not getting in it!

[goofygrin]

Your pain and story has no relevance here. The only thing that creates new federal power is an amendment. It doesnt' matter if everyone in the US has TB and is dying by the thousands, the federal government has no power to do anything under the constitution.


Please check with your state.

Conversely, people LACK of medical issues is not an argument for no healthcare options. I'm torn because I KNOW that the healthcare and insurance industries are fucked up. I also know that I don't think the government is going to do any better. I doubt that private industry will solve the problem though because people like my wife will simply be forced to die with no care.

So forcing people to buy insurance they may never use, is a terrible arguement? I think it is a terrible arguement to assume someone will need healthcare. Not all of us are plagued with medical issues (knock on wood). Sure 20k wouldn't last long for some serious problem. However, hospitals do also have payment plans. My father passed at the age of 50. So say he was forced to get healthcare at 25, how much you think he would have paid in for 25 years. Fyi, his medical bill at the hospital was $1,200. How do you think health insurance makes money? Because the majority never use the amount they pay in.

Again, if I can't argue that I have health issues, you can't argue that you don't. It's a two way street friend.

I had my appendix out (2 days stay in the hospital, laproscopic surgery, standard stuff). $30k. Shit isn't cheap.

Not true. You shop doctors before you need them. YOu discuss payments, costs for services and how much they charge per hour. No one has a right to insurance of any kind. Deciding that you are owed more money than you pay in or the labor of others (insurance companies, doctors, nurses, etc) is slavery. You are enslaving someone else for your own gain.

Wait, what? So... it's 4am. You wake up in cold sweats with a heart attack. You're saying you stop, get on yelp, call doctors? Or you have preplanned to have a heart attack so you contact doctors? Who pays for those doctors?

I don't expect doctors and nurses to work for free. No way... but I'd prefer them to not work for money grubbing hospitals that put the bottom line and not patient care first. Ask anyone that works in a hospital what's first... the patients or the hospital.

My statements are this:
- healthcare is a FOR PROFIT enterprise (for a variety of reasons) and the costs are spiraling faster than imaginable... again, for a variety of reasons (bad debt, no insurance patient, high school costs, malpractice suits, etc.).
- insurance is a FOR PROFIT enterprise. They are in the business of NOT paying money.
- It seems to me (and I'm financially conservative) that there is a *right* to whatever the government can provide in terms of general welfare (safety, healthcare, utilities, etc.). The preamble of the constitution has this phrase: "promote the general welfare."

Do I think that the currently in dispute legislation is the correct legislation? No. I won't argue it's merits because I don't agree with it in its entirety. The biggest issue I have is that people easily say, mostly because they have NEVER had any other experiences, that someone should just give up and die because they don't have access to healthcare.

Access to health insurance is not a simple matter. I had no health insurance for a long time. There's a huge gap in coverage for self insured people (ie. the way to prosperity and wealth in the US). You either gamble and have none, buy limited self insurance policies or you get the state pool if you get denied. Those are your choices. If you work a job that sucks, but has good benefits, are you less likely to quit? Yes. You now are the slave to that job. Do I take advantage of that fact? Abso-fuckin-lutely. I offer great benefits at my employees because I know that it will work as a tool to keep them at my company longer. I make the investment in them. Is it slightly underhanded? Yes.

[Vertnut]

Conversely, people LACK of medical issues is not an argument for no healthcare options. I'm torn because I KNOW that the healthcare and insurance industries are fucked up. I also know that I don't think the government is going to do any better. I doubt that private industry will solve the problem though because people like my wife will simply be forced to die with no care.



Again, if I can't argue that I have health issues, you can't argue that you don't. It's a two way street friend.

I had my appendix out (2 days stay in the hospital, laproscopic surgery, standard stuff). $30k. Shit isn't cheap.



Wait, what? So... it's 4am. You wake up in cold sweats with a heart attack. You're saying you stop, get on yelp, call doctors? Or you have preplanned to have a heart attack so you contact doctors? Who pays for those doctors?

I don't expect doctors and nurses to work for free. No way... but I'd prefer them to not work for money grubbing hospitals that put the bottom line and not patient care first. Ask anyone that works in a hospital what's first... the patients or the hospital.

My statements are this:
- healthcare is a FOR PROFIT enterprise (for a variety of reasons) and the costs are spiraling faster than imaginable... again, for a variety of reasons (bad debt, no insurance patient, high school costs, malpractice suits, etc.).
- insurance is a FOR PROFIT enterprise. They are in the business of NOT paying money.
- It seems to me (and I'm financially conservative) that there is a *right* to whatever the government can provide in terms of general welfare (safety, healthcare, utilities, etc.). The preamble of the constitution has this phrase: "promote the general welfare."

Do I think that the currently in dispute legislation is the correct legislation? No. I won't argue it's merits because I don't agree with it in its entirety. The biggest issue I have is that people easily say, mostly because they have NEVER had any other experiences, that someone should just give up and die because they don't have access to healthcare.

Access to health insurance is not a simple matter. I had no health insurance for a long time. There's a huge gap in coverage for self insured people (ie. the way to prosperity and wealth in the US). You either gamble and have none, buy limited self insurance policies or you get the state pool if you get denied. Those are your choices. If you work a job that sucks, but has good benefits, are you less likely to quit? Yes. You now are the slave to that job. Do I take advantage of that fact? Abso-fuckin-lutely. I offer great benefits at my employees because I know that it will work as a tool to keep them at my company longer. I make the investment in them. Is it slightly underhanded? Yes.

Parkland is right around the corner. Health-care is NOT a "right".

[Machx2]

Again, if I can't argue that I have health issues, you can't argue that you don't. It's a two way street friend.

I had my appendix out (2 days stay in the hospital, laproscopic surgery, standard stuff). $30k. Shit isn't cheap.


.

What are you talking about? You want insurance, I don't. Tell me how you can compare that? Basically you are saying you want myself, and other people who don't have insurance, to pay for your problems.

[Vertnut]

What are you talking about? You want insurance, I don't. Tell me how you can compare that? Basically you are saying you want myself, and other people who don't have insurance, to pay for your problems.

Exactly. Our premiums are higher because he's in poor health. It's just another form of welfare.

[TEAMJACOB]

To those who are healthy, I'd argue 90 to 95 percent of us will at some point have to deal with something live changing and ultimately expensive. As we age most of us will have our bouts rather it be cancer, diabetes, heart problems, strokes, poor circulation, fucking gout. All of your healths will deteriorate one day because we all die. That's when you need your insurance. Once again though, not a fan of Obamacare. Just people shoudnt be penalized for being ill by insurance companies nor should other policy holders that are healthy

[Forever_frost]

Conversely, people LACK of medical issues is not an argument for no healthcare options. I'm torn because I KNOW that the healthcare and insurance industries are fucked up. I also know that I don't think the government is going to do any better. I doubt that private industry will solve the problem though because people like my wife will simply be forced to die with no care.



Again, if I can't argue that I have health issues, you can't argue that you don't. It's a two way street friend.

I had my appendix out (2 days stay in the hospital, laproscopic surgery, standard stuff). $30k. Shit isn't cheap.



Wait, what? So... it's 4am. You wake up in cold sweats with a heart attack. You're saying you stop, get on yelp, call doctors? Or you have preplanned to have a heart attack so you contact doctors? Who pays for those doctors?

I don't expect doctors and nurses to work for free. No way... but I'd prefer them to not work for money grubbing hospitals that put the bottom line and not patient care first. Ask anyone that works in a hospital what's first... the patients or the hospital.

My statements are this:
- healthcare is a FOR PROFIT enterprise (for a variety of reasons) and the costs are spiraling faster than imaginable... again, for a variety of reasons (bad debt, no insurance patient, high school costs, malpractice suits, etc.).
- insurance is a FOR PROFIT enterprise. They are in the business of NOT paying money.
- It seems to me (and I'm financially conservative) that there is a *right* to whatever the government can provide in terms of general welfare (safety, healthcare, utilities, etc.). The preamble of the constitution has this phrase: "promote the general welfare."

Do I think that the currently in dispute legislation is the correct legislation? No. I won't argue it's merits because I don't agree with it in its entirety. The biggest issue I have is that people easily say, mostly because they have NEVER had any other experiences, that someone should just give up and die because they don't have access to healthcare.

Access to health insurance is not a simple matter. I had no health insurance for a long time. There's a huge gap in coverage for self insured people (ie. the way to prosperity and wealth in the US). You either gamble and have none, buy limited self insurance policies or you get the state pool if you get denied. Those are your choices. If you work a job that sucks, but has good benefits, are you less likely to quit? Yes. You now are the slave to that job. Do I take advantage of that fact? Abso-fuckin-lutely. I offer great benefits at my employees because I know that it will work as a tool to keep them at my company longer. I make the investment in them. Is it slightly underhanded? Yes.

General welfare is explained in the 18 enumerated powers. Before I had insurance, I shopped around for shots, for anything I needed done. ARe you saying you can't call around and say "hey, do you give discounts for cash transactions?" They do. Hospitals also have payment plans. Again, you have no right to insurance, you have no right to the labor of a doctor or nurse. Do you work for profit? What if someone wanted the government to step in and tell you what you can charge for your labor and wait, you also had tons of regulations on you as you work, had incredible insurance costs to practice, student loans to repay for your education to do what you do and you also had to do X number of free jobs a year or lose your license?

Tell me you'd do your job. And that's without getting into the constitutionality of it.

[Forever_frost]

To those who are healthy, I'd argue 90 to 95 percent of us will at some point have to deal with something live changing and ultimately expensive. As we age most of us will have our bouts rather it be cancer, diabetes, heart problems, strokes, poor circulation, fucking gout. All of your healths will deteriorate one day because we all die. That's when you need your insurance. Once again though, not a fan of Obamacare. Just people shoudnt be penalized for being ill by insurance companies nor should other policy holders that are healthy

They aren't being penalized. They are being held responsible for the choices they make. If you don't have insurance but have a cell phone, internet and cable deal with it. Make better choices. If you're sick all your life and need expensive care? Sometimes life isn't fair and part of freedom is some people fail.

Producers and those who don't wish to engage in this are being penalized, not those getting something for free who are using more of the money than those paying in

[Machx2]

To those who are healthy, I'd argue 90 to 95 percent of us will at some point have to deal with something live changing and ultimately expensive. As we age most of us will have our bouts rather it be cancer, diabetes, heart problems, strokes, poor circulation, fucking gout. All of your healths will deteriorate one day because we all die. That's when you need your insurance. Once again though, not a fan of Obamacare. Just people shoudnt be penalized for being ill by insurance companies nor should other policy holders that are healthy

I realize that at some point, you may have an expensive medical bill. However, it isn't up to the government to decide whether I need it or not. My grandma died at the age of 91. She only went to the doctor for regular checkups and never had insurance. My great grandma is now 90, and she only goes to doctors for checkups. She does have health insurance and pays a shit ton. All 3 of my brothers don't make enough money right now to afford health insurance. We were also brought up to not take handouts, so medicaid is out of the question. If obamacare doesn't get shut down, I bet there will be 3 more people on medicaid.

[bcoop]

What are you talking about? You want insurance, I don't. Tell me how you can compare that? Basically you are saying you want myself, and other people who don't have insurance, to pay for your problems.

Winner winner, chicken dinner.


You can't afford healthcare? How is that my fault? Or anyone else's? Nobody is stopping you from getting a better paying job that affords you benefits. Nobody is stopping you from furthering your education, so you can get a better job with benefits. Your lack of motivation isn't anyone else's problem. Period. It's been repeated several times, but you don't get it, so I'll say it again. Healthcare is not a right. End of story.


Nobody is saying the system is perfect. I think we can all agree it's fucked up. But Govt is not the answer. I bet money you were crying foul when Govt intervened with GM. But it's ok to let them take over healthcare? It's the same thing. Govt has no business in private industry. They have no authority to do shove this down our throats.

[Broncojohnny]

What are you talking about? You want insurance, I don't. Tell me how you can compare that? Basically you are saying you want myself, and other people who don't have insurance, to pay for your problems.

I am glad someone else came to this conclusion because I was about to.

I feel for you goofygrin, I really do, because there are chronically ill people who need constant care and life fucks them. But that isn't my problem. My job in life is to leave a legacy for my children, not support everyone who needs help. Believe me, I would do it in a hearbeat if I could but it is idealistic.

Someone hinted at the real problem and it is the COST of healthcare, not how to pay for it. Funny how the government doesn't want to address that. I'm sure some lobbyists are in there making sure that doesn't come up.

[goofygrin]

I am glad someone else came to this conclusion because I was about to.

I feel for you goofygrin, I really do, because there are chronically ill people who need constant care and life fucks them. But that isn't my problem. My job in life is to leave a legacy for my children, not support everyone who needs help. Believe me, I would do it in a hearbeat if I could but it is idealistic.

Someone hinted at the real problem and it is the COST of healthcare, not how to pay for it. Funny how the government doesn't want to address that. I'm sure some lobbyists are in there making sure that doesn't come up.

That was me talking about the cost of healthcare

[goofygrin]

What are you talking about? You want insurance, I don't. Tell me how you can compare that? Basically you are saying you want myself, and other people who don't have insurance, to pay for your problems.

I don't want insurance. I want a base level of healthcare. There's a difference. It's not subtle either.

It's very, very easy to sit back and say "fuck ya'll because I'm healthy" but quite another story when you actually are bum fuck broke and have cancer and are unable to work.

Or you watch your child die because you lost your job going to their chemo appointments.



For all you people not wanting government healthcare, are you ready to kill off Social Security and Medicare/medicaid? Because it's the same thing that you're arguing against! Your grandparents likely rely on that income. Damn near everyone on this forum will rely on it as well (assuming it's still around).

[TEAMJACOB]

They aren't being penalized. They are being held responsible for the choices they make. If you don't have insurance but have a cell phone, internet and cable deal with it. Make better choices. If you're sick all your life and need expensive care? Sometimes life isn't fair and part of freedom is some people fail.

Producers and those who don't wish to engage in this are being penalized, not those getting something for free who are using more of the money than those paying in

I am against obamacare. Like I said. I just think not covering people who need it and work for a living is wrong. My need, for example, are 13k a dose. I take one every 7 wks. If for some reason my insurance was dropped because of my illness, who do you think is paying? I can't and regardless of what you think, i'm not just going to shrivl over and die. Once again though I am against the forcing it on people part and hope it gets put down.

I realize that at some point, you may have an expensive medical bill. However, it isn't up to the government to decide whether I need it or not. My grandma died at the age of 91. She only went to the doctor for regular checkups and never had insurance. My great grandma is now 90, and she only goes to doctors for checkups. She does have health insurance and pays a shit ton. All 3 of my brothers don't make enough money right now to afford health insurance. We were also brought up to not take handouts, so medicaid is out of the question. If obamacare doesn't get shut down, I bet there will be 3 more people on medicaid.

I hope it does get shut down