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Killing babies no different from abortion, experts say

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  • Killing babies no different from abortion, experts say

    A shit storm... it's coming...




    Link to actual report: http://jme.bmj.com/content/early/201....full.pdf+html

    Killing babies no different from abortion, experts say
    Parents should be allowed to have their newborn babies killed because they are “morally irrelevant” and ending their lives is no different to abortion, a group of medical ethicists linked to Oxford University has argued.

    The article, published in the Journal of Medical Ethics, says newborn babies are not “actual persons” and do not have a “moral right to life”. The academics also argue that parents should be able to have their baby killed if it turns out to be disabled when it is born.

    The journal’s editor, Prof Julian Savulescu, director of the Oxford Uehiro Centre for Practical Ethics, said the article's authors had received death threats since publishing the article. He said those who made abusive and threatening posts about the study were “fanatics opposed to the very values of a liberal society”.

    The article, entitled “After-birth abortion: Why should the baby live?”, was written by two of Prof Savulescu’s former associates, Alberto Giubilini and Francesca Minerva.
    They argued: “The moral status of an infant is equivalent to that of a fetus in the sense that both lack those properties that justify the attribution of a right to life to an individual.”
    Rather than being “actual persons”, newborns were “potential persons”. They explained: “Both a fetus and a newborn certainly are human beings and potential persons, but neither is a ‘person’ in the sense of ‘subject of a moral right to life’.

    “We take ‘person’ to mean an individual who is capable of attributing to her own existence some (at least) basic value such that being deprived of this existence represents a loss to her.”
    As such they argued it was “not possible to damage a newborn by preventing her from developing the potentiality to become a person in the morally relevant sense”.
    The authors therefore concluded that “what we call ‘after-birth abortion’ (killing a newborn) should be permissible in all the cases where abortion is, including cases where the newborn is not disabled”.
    They also argued that parents should be able to have the baby killed if it turned out to be disabled without their knowing before birth, for example citing that “only the 64 per cent of Down’s syndrome cases” in Europe are diagnosed by prenatal testing.
    Once such children were born there was “no choice for the parents but to keep the child”, they wrote.
    “To bring up such children might be an unbearable burden on the family and on society as a whole, when the state economically provides for their care.”
    However, they did not argue that some baby killings were more justifiable than others – their fundamental point was that, morally, there was no difference to abortion as already practised.
    They preferred to use the phrase “after-birth abortion” rather than “infanticide” to “emphasise that the moral status of the individual killed is comparable with that of a fetus”.
    Both Minerva and Giubilini know Prof Savulescu through Oxford. Minerva was a research associate at the Oxford Uehiro Centre for Practical Ethics until last June, when she moved to the Centre for Applied Philosophy and Public Ethics at Melbourne University.
    Giubilini, a former visiting student at Cambridge University, gave a talk in January at the Oxford Martin School – where Prof Savulescu is also a director – titled 'What is the problem with euthanasia?'
    He too has gone on to Melbourne, although to the city’s Monash University. Prof Savulescu worked at both univerisities before moving to Oxford in 2002.
    Defending the decision to publish in a British Medical Journal blog, Prof Savulescu, said that arguments in favour of killing newborns were “largely not new”.
    What Minerva and Giubilini did was apply these arguments “in consideration of maternal and family interests”.
    While accepting that many people would disagree with their arguments, he wrote: “The goal of the Journal of Medical Ethics is not to present the Truth or promote some one moral view. It is to present well reasoned argument based on widely accepted premises.”
    Speaking to The Daily Telegraph, he added: “This “debate” has been an example of “witch ethics” - a group of people know who the witch is and seek to burn her. It is one of the most dangerous human tendencies we have. It leads to lynching and genocide. Rather than argue and engage, there is a drive is to silence and, in the extreme, kill, based on their own moral certainty. That is not the sort of society we should live in.”
    He said the journal would consider publishing an article positing that, if there was no moral difference between abortion and killing newborns, then abortion too should be illegal.
    Dr Trevor Stammers, director of medical ethics at St Mary's University College, said: "If a mother does smother her child with a blanket, we say 'it's doesn't matter, she can get another one,' is that what we want to happen?
    "What these young colleagues are spelling out is what we would be the inevitable end point of a road that ethical philosophers in the States and Australia have all been treading for a long time and there is certainly nothing new."
    Referring to the term "after-birth abortion", Dr Stammers added: "This is just verbal manipulation that is not philosophy. I might refer to abortion henceforth as antenatal infanticide."

  • #2
    Wow just wow
    92 LX 5.0

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    • #3
      Uh.... Say what?
      ZOMBIE REAGAN FOR PRESIDENT 2016!!! heh

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      • #4
        Late term, 30th trimester.
        Ded

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        • #5
          Can this carry over to teenagers? It would be nice to have a backing for my 'I brought you into this world and I can take you out' threat.

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          • #6
            i just love talking to people that can morally justify abortion.
            It makes me wonder, if they can justify that in their own head then they can justify anything they want.

            From a purely pychological perspective, its pretty amazing how livid people can get defending their own actions as justified. Even if it was long ago.
            Try this shit with God!
            oh yeah he couldn't possibly exist either, so it's all good with murder and mayham if you can just justify it to yourself (or a failing society comprised mainly of your dimwitted liberal friends).

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            • #7
              Old shit. Seen on infowars/prisonplanet first.
              Full time ninja editor.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by futant View Post
                i just love talking to people that can morally justify abortion.
                It makes me wonder, if they can justify that in their own head then they can justify anything they want.

                From a purely pychological perspective, its pretty amazing how livid people can get defending their own actions as justified. Even if it was long ago.
                Try this shit with God!
                oh yeah he couldn't possibly exist either, so it's all good with murder and mayham if you can just justify it to yourself (or a failing society comprised mainly of your dimwitted liberal friends).
                We've been over all these points in many abortion threads before this one. Did you read any of them?

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                • #9
                  meanwhile in China
                  http://www.truthcontest.com/entries/...iversal-truth/

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                  • #10
                    So, I should be able to kill my son and not have any consequences? I didn't read any of that, but that's what I gathered. That's fucking stupid. How could someone kill a newborn?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by futant View Post
                      i just love talking to people that can morally justify abortion.
                      It makes me wonder, if they can justify that in their own head then they can justify anything they want.

                      From a purely pychological perspective, its pretty amazing how livid people can get defending their own actions as justified. Even if it was long ago.
                      Try this shit with God!
                      oh yeah he couldn't possibly exist either, so it's all good with murder and mayham if you can just justify it to yourself (or a failing society comprised mainly of your dimwitted liberal friends).


                      lol

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ENKI View Post
                        So, I should be able to kill my son and not have any consequences? I didn't read any of that, but that's what I gathered. That's fucking stupid. How could someone kill a newborn?
                        Well, the article referenced smothering, but I'm pretty sure there are other options.

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                        • #13
                          And that is the kicker with abortion. You just keep pushing the 'acceptable' level later and later until it is fine to kill anyone at any time.

                          Wait...maybe there is merit to this
                          I wear a Fez. Fez-es are cool

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                          • #14

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                            • #15
                              More personhood rights! This time for eggs and sperm, because they're people too...

                              The Wilmington City Council has a message for men -- sperm are people, too.

                              The council for Delaware's largest city passed a resolution by an 8-4 vote Thursday calling on the Delaware legislature, other state legislatures and the U.S. Congress to pass laws granting "personhood" rights to eggs and sperm. The resolution was authored by councilwoman Loretta Walsh as a protest in the current battle over women's health care access.

                              "[E]ach 'egg person' and each 'sperm person' should be deemed equal in the eyes of the government and be subject to the same laws and regulations as any other dependent minor and be protected against abuse, neglect or abandonment by the parent or guardian," says the resolution. "[L]aws should be enacted by all legislative bodies in the United States to promote equal representation, and should potentially include laws in defense of 'personhood,' forbidding every man from destroying his semen."

                              The vote came the same day that the U.S. Senate voted down an amendment that would have given employers the right to refuse any health care service to employees for moral reasons.

                              Walsh isn't the first lawmaker to introduce such a measure. Sen. Constance Johnson, a Democratic state senator from Oklahoma, introduced and later withdrew an amendment to a "personhood" bill that would have given zygotes the same rights as adults. "However, any action in which a man ejaculates or otherwise deposits semen anywhere but in a woman's vagina shall be interpreted and construed as an action against an unborn child," reads the amendment.

                              Other legislators have lodged similar protests. As the Virginia legislature considered a bill requiring women to undergo mandatory ultrasounds before abortions, state Sen. Janet Howell put forth an amendment mandating that men get a rectal exam and a cardiac stress test prior to being treated for erectile dysfunction. (The mandatory ultrasound bill has since passed the state Senate and the governor is expected to sign, albeit no longer requiring an invasive transvaginal ultrasound.) Georgia state Rep. Yasmin Neal introduced a bill vastly limiting vasectomies for men as a protest against an abortion bill in her state.

                              "What's good for the gander is good for the goose," said Walsh, according to The News Journal.


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