So here's a question for the believers...

[4.6coupe]

Graham’s experience is the same as many Christians. An atheist cannot share this experience, but when a believer turns to God, God gives them His Spirit, which gives them confidence that God exists, that Jesus is God, and that they are regenerated (Matthew 16:13-17). The Bible says, “by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us” (1 John 3:24). And again, “By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit” (1 John 4:13). (See also Romans 8:16; Col. 2:2-3; John 20:31.)Faith is not simply the recourse of an weak-minded religious nut. It is the sum and substance of any religious belief system. Faith is even the basis for the atheist’s non-belief in God. The Bible describes faith as “the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen” (Heb. 11:1). Faith is not a pathetic baseless optimism for something that science disproves. Faith is actuality. Faith is substance. Faith is conviction.

The Christian does not need to understand religious epistemology in order to have trustworthy assurance of these things. They are objectively true without his full understanding. They are subjectively true based on the internal confirmation of the Holy Spirit. Thus, when the Christian believes in the existence of God and the truth of Scripture, he believes in something just as reliable and even more certain as those things verified by the scientific method.

[racrguy]

I know a Christian who had a friend who was an atheist. As the two discussed the issue of atheism vs. Christianity, the Christian man showed the atheist a passage in Romans 1. Romans 1 explains that so-called atheists, among others, actually “by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them” (Rom. 1:18-19). How has God shown Himself to them? “His invisible attributes, namely his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew god, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools.” The Christian told the atheist, “The reason you don’t believe in God is that you don’t want to.” The man replied, “You know, I never thought about it, but you’re right!”

The atheist uses faith, too. He puts his faith in science or self. He presupposes that science or self are trustworthy places for his confidence, and finds corroboration for this presupposition in the evidences that he can comprehend. He believes in his own testimony. The Bible, however, confronts this tenuous belief system; “If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater” (1 John 5:9). God’s testimony is found in Jesus--an indisputable historical figure. As C. S. Lewis summarized, Jesus was one of three things. Either he was a 1) subversive liar, 2) or a raving lunatic, or 3) He was actually who He claimed to be--the Son of God. Which one was he? The passage cited above goes on to say, “Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son” (1 John 5:10).

The atheist finds himself in the difficult position of denying all of those things that speak to God’s existence and the validity of the Christian faith. He rejects God. He rejects the creation of the world by God. He rejects the deity of Christ. He rejects God’s Word. He suppresses the inner testimony that he has concerning the reality of God. All that he is left with his a feeble self-confidence. This is the atheist’s confidence.

The Christian’s source of confidence--his faith--is an unshakable faith in God, revealed in His Word, manifested in Jesus Christ, and confirmed by His Spirit. This is not only a more defensible belief system than the atheist’s; it is a far better way to live. In fact, it is the only way to really live. “Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life” (1 John 5:6).

Atheism declares that there is no god. Christianity teaches that there is a God. Both cannot be true. So which one is correct, the atheist or the Christian? How you respond depends upon faith. It depends on the source of your faith. Will you have faith in self? Or in God?

In order to muster “Christian arguments against atheism,” we need to realize that we are not simply trying to argue against something. It is necessary to argue for something. The term “atheism” is a word composed of two parts: “a-” which means “without,” and “theos,” which means “god.” Thus, any argument against atheism (without God) will be an argument for theism (God).

Since arguments against atheism are necessarily arguments for God, here are some of classical arguments for the existence of God, in summary form.

-The Argument from Causality: Look around for something that does not have a cause (and therefore a beginning). This sequence can work backwards indefinitely. But does it go infinitely, or does it ultimately stop? To say that it goes on infinitely leads to a logical dilemma. Without some initial cause, there can be no caused things, and no explanation for causality itself. The only rational answer is that there is at the beginning of all things an uncaused Cause, capable of causing all things.
-The Argument from Design: Nature manifests a certain irreducible complexity. The design in nature requires a Designer. God is the creator and designer of all things.
-The Ontological Argument: The idea of God exists in the mind, even in the mind of an atheist. The event of one's mind understanding this idea must have a sufficient cause. The idea is one that contains infinite perfection, but one's mind is limited by finite perfection, as is everything else in the natural world. A mentally imperfect being cannot produce a mentally perfect effect. Therefore, there is a perfect Mind transcendent to the universe, from which the idea of perfection can originate.
-The Moral Argument: Morality exists. Whether we are considering a stone-age Amazonian cannibal or an intellectual savant at a prestigious Ivy League school, every human being has some sense of morality. Everyone has some level of mental obligation to do good and avoid evil. Why else do we have laws, government, military, prisons, and self-improvement books? The atheistic view is incompatible with real moral obligation. Therefore, the theistic view, which is compatible with real moral obligation, must be correct. Moral obligation cannot originate in the mind of man, and therefore must originate in the mind of a greater being, which is God.
Although these arguments bear some intellectual curiosity, they are by themselves insufficient to persuade someone not to be an atheist. Nor are they necessary to do so. In fact, some of the arguments for God (and there are many more) may actually be paralogisms. While arguments for the existence of God may help to demonstrate that belief in God is not irrational, there is more that is necessary to bring real confidence for the Christian. Furthermore, more than philosophical rationality is necessary to truly dissuade an atheist from his or her no-god beliefs.

Here is where the atheist may begin to object. The atheist prefers to argue on the basis of logic, empiricism, or even philosophy as the only fair grounds for discussion. But logic, empiricism, and philosophy are only a tiny slice of reality. When the arguments against atheism get into spiritual issues, he or she may dismiss them as irrelevant. Although the atheist may be dissatisfied with the arguments, these are the only arguments which truly matter. The reality is, these spiritual issues are of utmost importance and relevance. That’s where we’re going next.

In the end, the Christian is not convinced of his or her theism based on sophisticated arguments or capable apologetic defenses. The Christian is convinced of his or her position based on faith. Consider the story of Billy Graham, a well-known evangelical preacher. He was pestered by philosophical and psychological questions that his friend Charles Templeton and others were raising. Eventually Graham said, “At last the Holy Spirit freed me to say it. ‘Father, I am going to accept this as Thy Word – by faith! I’m going to allow faith to go beyond my intellectual questions and doubts, and I will believe this to be Your inspired Word.’ …Not all my questions were answered, but…I knew a major spiritual battle in my soul had been fought and won.”

Graham’s experience is the same as many Christians. An atheist cannot share this experience, but when a believer turns to God, God gives them His Spirit, which gives them confidence that God exists, that Jesus is God, and that they are regenerated (Matthew 16:13-17). The Bible says, “by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us” (1 John 3:24). And again, “By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit” (1 John 4:13). (See also Romans 8:16; Col. 2:2-3; John 20:31.)Faith is not simply the recourse of an weak-minded religious nut. It is the sum and substance of any religious belief system. Faith is even the basis for the atheist’s non-belief in God. The Bible describes faith as “the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen” (Heb. 11:1). Faith is not a pathetic baseless optimism for something that science disproves. Faith is actuality. Faith is substance. Faith is conviction.

The Christian does not need to understand religious epistemology in order to have trustworthy assurance of these things. They are objectively true without his full understanding. They are subjectively true based on the internal confirmation of the Holy Spirit. Thus, when the Christian believes in the existence of God and the truth of Scripture, he believes in something just as reliable and even more certain as those things verified by the scientific method.

You lazy son of a bitch. You can't even be bothered to source your stolen material from. Or understand that material well enough to rewrite it in your own words. You'd figure people would learn a lesson from when stephen4785 decided he was going to plagiarize things and not source it, and make it seem like they were his arguments.

Let's not even count the fact that in the OPENING SENTENCE of the webpage you stole this material from is wrong. Completely and utterly wrong. There's no need to address each point, because you can't be trusted to understand what you've posted.

http://www.faithclipart.com/guide/christian-apologetics/christian-arguments-against-atheism.html

[4.6coupe]

God bless you racrguy.

[slow06]

Racrguy You have to realize there are several acceptable definitions of atheism people are working from. I get the impression you would agree with the bolded one below?

(Taken from Wikipedia, since we are citing sources...)

Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[2][3] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.[3][4][5] Atheism is contrasted with theism,[6][7] which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.[7][8]

If we accept that definition then I don't think many would argue with you. I think blacksnake is thinking more like the first definition above.

[BlackSnake]

You're doing one of three things. 1) trying hard not to learn what I'm trying to teach you. 2) ignoring everything I say 3) acknowledging what I say, yet continuing on with the same line that I've already explained away, ala the king. Did you not fully understand what I was telling you in the post you quoted of mine? I can explain it another way if I need to. Also, non-theist is by definition atheist. Thanks for agreeing with me, but not knowing you are.

Please explain to me how both you and god demonstrate gods existence on a daily basis.

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone "hears" My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. " (Revelation 3:20)

"Judas said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will COME TO HIM and MAKE OUR HOME WITH HIM. . . ." (John 14:22-23).

"The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want.
"He makes me to lie down in green pastures. He leads me beside the still waters.
"He restores my soul. He leads me in the paths of righteousness for His name's sake.
"Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for You are with me . . .
"Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life. And I will dwell in the house of the Lord FOREVER." (Psalm 23:1-4, 6)



John 10:1-42

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” ...

[Maddhattter]

Uncredited Source

Cool story, bro. Glad you knew someone who.... Wait a minute... The quote above looks much shorter than the 7 posts you made...

Seriously, you could have at least kept it in order, or given credit to those did the work of writing the document.

However, the responses are easy enough....

All bolded sections are copy/pasted from the site that 4.6coupe plagairized his posts from. That site here again, for everone's review. All points are also left in the order they appear on that site.

Atheism declares that there is no god.

The Oxford dictionary, etymology and common usage among those who identify with the label disagree.

atheist
noun
a person who does not believe in the existence of God or gods:

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/atheist#m_en_gb0977070

Christianity teaches that there is a God. Both cannot be true.

I agree.

So which one is correct, the atheist or the Christian? Is there a convincing argument against atheism?

My opinion on the two questions, atheism and no respectivly.

1. What Does it Mean to “Argue Against Atheism”?

I agee that arguing against atheism is arguing for theism.

2. Arguments Against Atheism
The Argument from Causality

This is not an argument against atheism. In order to argue that a god/gods is an uncaused cause, you must first show that a god/gods exists. To simplify, something must exist before is has characteristics.

The Argument from Design

This is not an argument against atheism. Even if you could show that everything we know exists requires a designer, this does not support a theistic designer, only that a designer is required.

The Ontological Argument

This is not an argument against atheism, this is an argument against science. There are a great many things that people can imagine, that in no way gives any support for their existance. If anything we can imagine must exist, than there is nothing that can be reliably known or believed. After all, I can imagine a world without the supernatural.

The Moral Argument

This is not an argument against atheism. This is only an argument for morality. Even if morality is objectivly given to us, it does not necessarily follow that it was given by a god/gods.

3. The Christian’s Confidence

Confidence =/= evidence. I'll agree that what is true is objectivly true, but believing something and having confidence in that belief does not support any claim. The Romans were confident in the existance of their gods, and they have not shown to be evidenitally supported either.

As to the rest of the assertions from the site, I'll just agree with most of what is said here.

I had considered finishing the entire page, since you'd copied all of it. I, then, realized that by the fact that I put any effort in responding at all demonstrates that I've put more thought into this than you have.

[racrguy]

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone "hears" My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. " (Revelation 3:20)

"Judas said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will COME TO HIM and MAKE OUR HOME WITH HIM. . . ." (John 14:22-23).

"The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want.
"He makes me to lie down in green pastures. He leads me beside the still waters.
"He restores my soul. He leads me in the paths of righteousness for His name's sake.
"Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for You are with me . . .
"Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life. And I will dwell in the house of the Lord FOREVER." (Psalm 23:1-4, 6)



John 10:1-42

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” ...

Good, you've met god then. Why don't you introduce us. I'd like to meet him, he must be even more interesting than the most interesting man in the world.

[Maddhattter]

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone "hears" My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. " (Revelation 3:20)

"Judas said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will COME TO HIM and MAKE OUR HOME WITH HIM. . . ." (John 14:22-23).

"The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want.
"He makes me to lie down in green pastures. He leads me beside the still waters.
"He restores my soul. He leads me in the paths of righteousness for His name's sake.
"Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for You are with me . . .
"Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life. And I will dwell in the house of the Lord FOREVER." (Psalm 23:1-4, 6)



John 10:1-42

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” ...

All you've done here is demonstrated that you can parrot words from a book. A book which has no authority if your god does not exist. So, you must first show that your god exists before this book has any authority.

[Jester]

Good, you've met god then. Why don't you introduce us. I'd like to meet him, he must be even more interesting than the most interesting man in the world.

I tried to introduce you. Stare at the sun. Hold one of your eyes open with both hands and be willing to let it burn right out of your skull as a sacrifice to him and have faith that it won't happen, but at the same time do not care if it does happen because it is the least you can do for the one that died for your sins. Sounds crazy right?

Well, you will never know unless you try. You may get your eye burned out of your skull or you may find God.

Good luck.

[racrguy]

I tried to introduce you. Stare at the sun. Hold one of your eyes open with both hands and be willing to let it burn right out of your skull as a sacrifice to him and have faith that it won't happen, but at the same time do not care if it does happen because it is the least you can do for the one that died for your sins. Sounds crazy right?

Well, you will never know unless you try. You may get your eye burned out of your skull or you may find God.

Good luck.

I don't have to stare at the sun to meet a person. In fact, I don't have to go through any sort of mumbo jumbo to have a conversation. If he exists it should be as simple as walking up, picking up a phone, sending an e-mail, or writing a letter. Hell, SOMEBODY would at least have a picture of the guy/girl/being.

And yes, it sounds crazy because it is. And not to mention staring at the sun is downright stupid.

[Jester]

I don't have to stare at the sun to meet a person. In fact, I don't have to go through any sort of mumbo jumbo to have a conversation. If he exists it should be as simple as walking up, picking up a phone, sending an e-mail, or writing a letter. Hell, SOMEBODY would at least have a picture of the guy/girl/being.

And yes, it sounds crazy because it is. And not to mention staring at the sun is downright stupid.

yep....sure is.......

[racrguy]

[Jester]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lu3VTngm1F0[/ame]lulz

[YALE]

I know a Christian who had a friend who was an atheist. As the two discussed the issue of atheism vs. Christianity, the Christian man showed the atheist a passage in Romans 1. Romans 1 explains that so-called atheists, among others, actually “by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them” (Rom. 1:18-19). How has God shown Himself to them? “His invisible attributes, namely his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew god, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools.” The Christian told the atheist, “The reason you don’t believe in God is that you don’t want to.” The man replied, “You know, I never thought about it, but you’re right!”

You brought a fourth hand anecdotal source into a thread about logic? Get the fuck out.

[BlackSnake]

Good, you've met god then. Why don't you introduce us. I'd like to meet him, he must be even more interesting than the most interesting man in the world.

Honestly, I have tried.