My issues with Christianity

[FATHERFORD]

How many more times does He have to come down for people to believe?

Once every generation or so?

He is all powerful, can create the heavens and earth, but can't stop by every 100 years and go, "Why y'all be trippin? I'm real yo! Now where my bitches?"

With that said, I do beleive there has to be a creator somewhere some how.

[The King]

Wow, now we're diving into solipsism, Solipsists are almost worse than theists.

Cool, this thread needed some more *ists.

[BrianC]

No offense (to set that aside first), but I'm guessing you approached your experiences in Baylor and your studies of the Bible in a semi-defensive manner. Most of what you posted is not what I received from what I read from the Bible. I actually grew up going to church every Sunday and that was about it for my family. We all half-assed paid attention to what was going on and didn't really put forth any effort into understanding anything. It was more of an obligatory visit than anything. During my mid-teen years, I ended up hating the task of going and eventually stopped. It wasn't until I had a desire to understand whether or not I even believed in God (or any god, for that matter), that I set aside time to really look into what the Bible said. Several times while reading, I played devil's advocate in my head to try and see both points of view as I read. Of course, everything about believing is faith-based, which varies from person to person. Everything just makes perfect sense and I have no problem accepting everything that is written in there. I even accept the fact that there are things that I'm not meant to understand. This is completely out of character for me (as most of you see with just about everything else we discuss on here). I wish there was a better way to explain it, because I would be shouting it from the top of my lungs for everyone to "get it." I honestly see why you see what you see from your perspective, but it isn't what I get from it. That is the beauty of this whole personal relationship with Him.

Whether you like it or not, each and every one of us has a personal relationship with God. Those of you who choose to not believe in Him, maybe question Him, don't know whether He exists, believes in another god, even partially believe what the Bible says or completely believes the Bible; we all have an individual relationship with Him.

His love to us is shown in many ways. One of those ways He shows this is giving us the gift of free will. We ultimately choose whether we accept Him or not. We choose how to live. We choose how to worship (if we do). We choose to ask for forgiveness, help, wisdom, comfort and salvation. It is all there for us as long as we accept Him and ask for it.

I can give my own point of view to each point you listed above, but all it will yield is someone else coming in and rebutting that, then another rebutting that response, arguing, name calling, etc.

In all honesty, it sounds like you're more against religion, rather than a personal relationship with God, which I am too. All these organized denominations of the "Christian Church" and other religions absolutely disgust me. Also using their "religion" as excuses to move their personal agendas are pretty repulsive.

It's almost too much of a battle to try and spread God's Word and Love when there are an overwhelming number of agnostics, atheists, believers in different gods and sheeple of bastardized translations of a clearly defined God.

Smart man. I agree 100% with absolutely everything you just said. Though, I will respond to his points just because it's fun to share info. Even though I will show that each one of his points is misunderstood or a lack of knowledge, he will not believe me, because like you said, he is against religion not God. He's simply done what most do and taken his view of religion which he dislikes (as do I) and assumed that religion actually portrays what God is like and then decided he is against God. And out of that effort, he's decided to not see proof of God in the world.

I'm with both of you: I hate organized religion with a passion because of how they twist God and traditions and practices for their own purposes. Christians tried to protest and redeem Christianity from the Catholics when Martin Luther exposed what was going on with the Catholic church and their false doctrines. But Protestants carried must Catholicism into their practices instead of going back to first century church practices, which were nearly the opposite of what we have today. If churches would go back to that way of meeting and acting in society (as much as one can in this day and age), I would be much more pleased with them. But, I look at Christianity as "it is what it is and I have to work with what I have". So, I'm not going to judge them for it, and I will work within and outside of them to share the truth about God and religious practices and how the important things are personal relationship with God and helping others.

[BrianC]

Unless you already have faith then reading the Bible would push you further away from understanding than bring you closer.

Not necessarily true. I know many people who had no clue about the Bible or religion or anything like that and decided to read it and got saved. The reason is because they were not upset with religion for some reason to begin with.

I've heard some people say that their parents "made" them go to church growing up and they didn't want to go and they resent their parents and religion for it. Those people are upset to begin with and so they see what God or others did as awful things. People who don't have something against God are usually more likely to see more of a balance of things in the Bible, and they can see the love of God in what Jesus did and in why God did what He did in the Old Testament for the good of His people and people throughout history. Even though they may know there was good reason for it, most don't understand why He did it the way He did, though. And that brings us to the OPs supposed proofs that God is not real, which is due to misunderstanding, lack of knowledge, and an attitude of anger toward religion that has been projected onto God.

[talisman]

Smart man. I agree 100% with absolutely everything you just said.

Denny, I just lost a little respect for you..





j/k

[BrianC]

I find it idiotic that intelligent people believe in fairy tales and magic.

I totally agree - like that Evolution thing... lol

[Denny]

Denny, I just lost a little respect for you..





j/k

I was pissed until I quoted this and saw the white text. LOL

[BlackSnake]

Yup. Didnt have the same effect on me. Read more like a fairy tale.

I would have to question this statement. I challenge anyone to read the Bible in its entirety. There are hundreds of stories in there plus poems, prayers, genealogy's and such. Just a hand full of what you would call fairy tale type stories.

Its imposable to read the Bible through and get nothing from it.

[BrianC]

Once every generation or so?

He is all powerful, can create the heavens and earth, but can't stop by every 100 years and go, "Why y'all be trippin? I'm real yo! Now where my bitches?"

With that said, I do beleive there has to be a creator somewhere some how.

Ummm... (no offense intended) you said you read the Bible, right? If so, you should know that doesn't work. When the Israelites were in the wilderness, Moses goes up on the mountain and he's up there for quite a long time, and God is there with him the whole time in the form of a fiery cloud. God even speaks out of the cloud to the people which scares them to death and that's why they sent Moses up to talk to God. And while he's up there, they assume he's dead and what do they do? They start worshiping Baal by building a golden calf and dancing around it. LOL God is RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF THEM, and the idiots rebel against Him. I mean, how absurd is that behavior?

God just showing up periodically doesn't fix anything. People are going to rebel against Him and act like He doesn't exist regardless of whether He shows Himself or not.

[BrianC]

I was pissed until I quoted this and saw the white text. LOL

I find it interesting that you and I agree on many big issues, and you take offense to someone calling you out on it. lol

I admit, I should not join in in the banter back and forth when atheists here go off on me before I have done anything mean to them. And there is no excuse for that. I do find it funny that they attack me first in most every thread, and then accuse me of attacking them as if I did it first. Pot calling the kettle black.

But you are much more civil than me and you don't give in to any desires to rip into these people who disagree with you. That is the correct way to do it.

For me, I choose to be stupid, as I know I shouldn't, and mess with them. One day I'll actually vow never to do it again, cause I know I shouldn't. lol Until then, I'll have a little more fun with them.

Though, I will say this: when a Christian here judges an atheist morally or calls them stupid because they don't believe in God, I jump in immediately to defend the atheist, because we're told not to judge the world and that no one is better than anyone else. That's one thing religion does and I won't be a part of that.

[Denny]

I find it interesting that you and I agree on many big issues, and you take offense to someone calling you out on it. lol

I admit, I should not join in in the banter back and forth when atheists here go off on me before I have done anything mean to them. And there is no excuse for that. I do find it funny that they attack me first in most every thread, and then accuse me of attacking them as if I did it first. Pot calling the kettle black.

But you are much more civil than me and you don't give in to any desires to rip into these people who disagree with you. That is the correct way to do it.

For me, I choose to be stupid, as I know I shouldn't, and mess with them. One day I'll actually vow never to do it again, cause I know I shouldn't. lol Until then, I'll have a little more fun with them.

No, it's just that Eric and I are personal friends outside this board. We are about as far off on the topic as possible, yet still get along great and respect eachother's perspectives. I have many friends that fall into this category. As much as it pains me to know what I know, I have come to the understanding that it was God's decision to grant us all free will and make our own choices. If He's cool with that, I should be as well.

As for some of the others, no one is going to change the way they believe unless they want it. Once again, no biggie, but I personally would like to see everyone headed to the same place.

[BrianC]

1. The Jews in Egypt.
No. We have a spectacular record of Egyptian history beginning from its routes as one of the 4 ancient river bed civilizations. We have no record of a man named Moses, a series of plagues, or much less a massive exodus of people to the desert. None. Not a single tangible speck of evidence, and it would seem like this would be significant enough to include in history. Some speculate that this occured under the short lived hyksos period, but there isnt even evidence to back this up.

There is also no evidence of a massive group of people wandering around in the desert. You would think that a group of thousands upon thousands of people in the desert would leave some evidence of their prescence, but nothing has EVER been discovered.

Actually, there's quite a bit of evidence. Here's one website:

http://www.bibleandscience.com/archaeology/exodus.htm

This is a great website for documenting everything they found about the exodus from Egypt. When thermal satellites look down from space shortly after sunset, the path the Israelites took to leave Egypt lights up like a Christmas tree. Why? Because an estimated 600,000 people walked and pulled their carts and animals through that path in the mountains, beating the sand so fine that when it rained, it basically became like concrete, and concrete retains heat longer than the rock around it. So, for a short time after sunset, thermal can pick it up. They found Mount Sinai in Saudi Arabia and the top of that mountain is charred black. Some say it's volcanic, but when you crack open the obsidian rocks, they're granite in the middle, just like the rest of the mountain which is not charred, which means they didn't come from a volcano. They also found the rock which Moses hit with his staff which cracked open and water came out of it filling the valley below with water. There's water erosion where the water came out, the rock is so big a man can walk through the split, and there are water lines in the valley showing where the water was retained there, just as the Bible states. They even found the oasis in the desert where the Israelites said they water was so bitter they couldn't drink it, but their animals would drink it.

http://www.anchorstone.com

So, your first point is inaccurate for the simple reason that you haven't come across the right research yet. That can happen to anyone. We can't know everything.

[FATHERFORD]

Ummm... (no offense intended) you said you read the Bible, right? If so, you should know that doesn't work. When the Israelites were in the wilderness, Moses goes up on the mountain and he's up there for quite a long time, and God is there with him the whole time in the form of a fiery cloud. God even speaks out of the cloud to the people which scares them to death and that's why they sent Moses up to talk to God. And while he's up there, they assume he's dead and what do they do? They start worshiping Baal by building a golden calf and dancing around it. LOL God is RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF THEM, and the idiots rebel against Him. I mean, how absurd is that behavior?

God just showing up periodically doesn't fix anything. People are going to rebel against Him and act like He doesn't exist regardless of whether He shows Himself or not.

No I never read the bible entirely as there is no reason to. Just reading what you just posted sounds like it came out of a toddlers fictional story book. Surely you don't beleive that actually happened?

If that did "really" happen, I want some of that shit the people and Moses were on cause it sounds like some good stuff...

If you are happy with your self following religion/bible as closely as you are and if it makes you a better person then I'm fine with that. For me, I'm going to live my life as the best person I can be to others and myself. I don't need a book of some guy tripping on LSD talking to clouds to tell me how to be the best person I can be.

[BrianC]

No, it's just that Eric and I are personal friends outside this board. We are about as far off on the topic as possible, yet still get along great and respect eachother's perspectives. I have many friends that fall into this category. As much as it pains me to know what I know, I have come to the understanding that it was God's decision to grant us all free will and make our own choices. If He's cool with that, I should be as well.

As for some of the others, no one is going to change the way they believe unless they want it. Once again, no biggie, but I personally would like to see everyone headed to the same place.

I agree 100% with everything you just said and I believe the same thing. I mentioned in one thread that off the board, I am nothing like this. I treat everyone with kindness and respect in person. If we disagree on stuff, I completely just brush it off and say, "Hey, it's cool. Everyone is entitled to believe whatever they like. We all have free-will." I discuss as friends and I don't judge anyone or get down on them or anything like that.

The only reason I do that here is because people acting a fool, going off on me, just because they don't like what I posted up which goes against what they believe. Now, I don't judge them. I do speculate on why they believe they way they do or why they're angry. Maybe that's judging, and if so, I shouldn't do that. But I say it knowing it is a guess and usually just to mess with them. My behavior is uncalled for. But I'm nothing like this in person. Murph, one of the SHO guys that moderates FordBastards.org is a friend and he says the same thing - that I'm completely different in person. lol

Either way, I'll have to stop messing with them eventually. MOST people will never change no matter what you show them to disprove their beliefs, because they WANT to believe what they believe for their own selfish purposes. It's a sad truth...

[BrianC]

No I never read the bible entirely as there is no reason to. Just reading what you just posted sounds like it came out of a toddlers fictional story book. Surely you don't beleive that actually happened?

If that did "really" happen, I want some of that shit the people and Moses were on cause it sounds like some good stuff...

If you are happy with your self following religion/bible as closely as you are and if it makes you a better person then I'm fine with that. For me, I'm going to live my life as the best person I can be to others and myself. I don't need a book of some guy tripping on LSD talking to clouds to tell me how to be the best person I can be.

I don't follow religion. I follow the Bible. Religion has it all screwed up. Like Denny said, you're upset with religion, not God.

As for you living life as the best person you can, evolution does not teach you those morals. Evolution has no moral foundations. You get that desire to set your morals to be the best person you can from the Bible. It is the only source of all morals you'll find world-wide. No other religion has the comprehensive morals Christianity does. There's good research on that. So, you are living in contradiction to your beliefs. You believe in evolution, and so you should be living without any morals, or at least you should be living with morals which benefit you primarily and your progress and survival. Being good to others doesn't necessarily fit that mold all the time. Just sayin'...