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Originally posted by mikeb
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Oh really now? Name calling? You ever heard of the term "Ad hominem"? Go look it up.
Most of what i know about the AA bankruptcy I read in the Wall Street Journal over the past few days.
1. I said "The AA pilot union turned down a sweet deal for the pilots right before AA filed bankruptcy."
The pilots union did turn down what many of us would consider a sweet deal somewhere around November 15th (note the date on this article):
In another article we find more about the proposals that were rejected.
"American's latest "option A" proposal:
Offers a 4 percent average signing bonus, and then a 3 percent raise at 15 months, a 2 percent raise at 30 months and a 2 percent raise at 45 months.
Removes the hard monthly flying cap and creates an average monthly flying range of 72 to 83 hours with immediate productivity gains.
Gives pilots the choice of keeping their pension plans or changing to an age-based contribution plan.
Increases medical benefits with employee costs at 22 percent, increasing to 25 percent by the end of the contract.
Its "option B" proposal:
Offers a 5 percent average signing bonus, and then a 4 percent, 2 percent and 3 percent raise in year one, two and three, respectively, of the contract.
Removes the hard monthly flying cap and moves to an average monthly flying range of 72 to 83 hours with productivity gains phased in over the contract.
Immediately freezes pilots' pensions in the primary plan.
Keeps employee medical benefit costs at 19 percent through the contract."
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Apparently the talks broke down over a %7 difference in the starting bonuses between what american proposed and what the unions wanted.
Do you realize that times are tight and a lot of people are not getting raises at all this year, or are getting very small ones? And the airlines are fighting high fuel costs, and AA in particular has high labor costs? I think that if you were to look at that deal thru the lens of an average american and not from the standpoint of an entitled union member - it looks like a pretty sweet deal. Maybe you should start a poll and see what the members here think about it.
"But American has lost more than $12 billion in the past decade, and that's not sustainable. It has an $800 million disadvantage on labor costs, and there was no finessing that albatross any longer."
2. I said "The deal they'll get now out of the bankruptcy is probably going to be far worse."
"The APA union admits that bankruptcy strips them of any and all leverage in contract negotiations. The pilots also realize that their next contract will be settled by a judge."
In my business i've dealt with bankruptcy judges before (customers of ours going tits up and owning us money); they are a dour bunch and are very unlikely to give a deal comparable to the one that the union turned down. Turnabout is fair play, and the unions will be presented with a "take it or leave it" proposal now.
3. I said "Unions are out of touch."
From that article:
"It wasn't enough that the Allied Pilots Association would reject a contract offer with job security, pension protection, annual raises and a signing bonus. Negotiators also wanted management to eat some humble pie.
After leaving for lunch on a Friday in mid-November, they didn't bother to return to the negotiating table -- and notified their counterparts with a text message. A few days later, after passing on the contract, they said they'd take a much-needed break for the week of Thanksgiving.
Well, no need to rush the talks now. While the union rested, American executives worked through the holiday and weekend, so parent company AMR could file for Chapter 11 on Tuesday.
The union snubs probably won't be mentioned in the legal papers, but they're telling: American's future was dangling by a thread, banking on an 11th-hour contract with the pilots union, and negotiators were still playing petty games."
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The union was clearly fiddling while AA burned. They clearly overplayed their hand. And that's being out of touch.
Most of what i know about the AA bankruptcy I read in the Wall Street Journal over the past few days.
1. I said "The AA pilot union turned down a sweet deal for the pilots right before AA filed bankruptcy."
The pilots union did turn down what many of us would consider a sweet deal somewhere around November 15th (note the date on this article):
In another article we find more about the proposals that were rejected.
"American's latest "option A" proposal:
Offers a 4 percent average signing bonus, and then a 3 percent raise at 15 months, a 2 percent raise at 30 months and a 2 percent raise at 45 months.
Removes the hard monthly flying cap and creates an average monthly flying range of 72 to 83 hours with immediate productivity gains.
Gives pilots the choice of keeping their pension plans or changing to an age-based contribution plan.
Increases medical benefits with employee costs at 22 percent, increasing to 25 percent by the end of the contract.
Its "option B" proposal:
Offers a 5 percent average signing bonus, and then a 4 percent, 2 percent and 3 percent raise in year one, two and three, respectively, of the contract.
Removes the hard monthly flying cap and moves to an average monthly flying range of 72 to 83 hours with productivity gains phased in over the contract.
Immediately freezes pilots' pensions in the primary plan.
Keeps employee medical benefit costs at 19 percent through the contract."
----
Apparently the talks broke down over a %7 difference in the starting bonuses between what american proposed and what the unions wanted.
Do you realize that times are tight and a lot of people are not getting raises at all this year, or are getting very small ones? And the airlines are fighting high fuel costs, and AA in particular has high labor costs? I think that if you were to look at that deal thru the lens of an average american and not from the standpoint of an entitled union member - it looks like a pretty sweet deal. Maybe you should start a poll and see what the members here think about it.
"But American has lost more than $12 billion in the past decade, and that's not sustainable. It has an $800 million disadvantage on labor costs, and there was no finessing that albatross any longer."
2. I said "The deal they'll get now out of the bankruptcy is probably going to be far worse."
"The APA union admits that bankruptcy strips them of any and all leverage in contract negotiations. The pilots also realize that their next contract will be settled by a judge."
In my business i've dealt with bankruptcy judges before (customers of ours going tits up and owning us money); they are a dour bunch and are very unlikely to give a deal comparable to the one that the union turned down. Turnabout is fair play, and the unions will be presented with a "take it or leave it" proposal now.
3. I said "Unions are out of touch."
From that article:
"It wasn't enough that the Allied Pilots Association would reject a contract offer with job security, pension protection, annual raises and a signing bonus. Negotiators also wanted management to eat some humble pie.
After leaving for lunch on a Friday in mid-November, they didn't bother to return to the negotiating table -- and notified their counterparts with a text message. A few days later, after passing on the contract, they said they'd take a much-needed break for the week of Thanksgiving.
Well, no need to rush the talks now. While the union rested, American executives worked through the holiday and weekend, so parent company AMR could file for Chapter 11 on Tuesday.
The union snubs probably won't be mentioned in the legal papers, but they're telling: American's future was dangling by a thread, banking on an 11th-hour contract with the pilots union, and negotiators were still playing petty games."
--------
The union was clearly fiddling while AA burned. They clearly overplayed their hand. And that's being out of touch.
Now whether the APA voted yes on the last proposal the company would've filed bankryptcy regardless.
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