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Originally posted by FreightTrain
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So the UAW had nothing to do with the demise of the US auto industry? Even after GM and Chrysler went belly up the UAW was asking for more money. I'm not saying they weren't mismanaged but the UAW constantly trying to bend over the companies that pay their salary and benefits even after said company was bleeding like a stuck pig is the reason most people here have a bad opinion on unions. And don't get me started on the FUCKED teachers unions in this country.1971 Ford Torino - Time to go bigger and better.
2011 F150 Limited - Stock with a 6.2 -
Lmao ... you can't be this ignorant.Originally posted by FreightTrain View PostOriginally posted by davbrucasComment
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Is that why every story in the newspaper about a union company failing has the head of the union crying about accepting concessions? The union crybabies are always the first to cry about a raise and the last to concede that they might have to give it up.Originally posted by FreightTrain View Post
Warren Buffett bought BNSF because it makes a profit in spite of the union agreement. The minute it doesn't, he'll chop the union off at the fucking knees at contract time, just wait and see. Next you'll tell me that the union will break Berkshire Hathaway, I'm sure.Originally posted by racrguyOriginally posted by racrguyComment
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Originally posted by Broncojohnny View Post
Yea despite the union they manage to make billions a year. The only thing that has been chopped at the fucking knees is management.
Your scenario will never play out in real life. Because despite having piss poor management and bleeding cash out of every hole a railroad will continue to make billions year after year. That's why he bought it. He has said a railroad is the most mismanaged company in the world, but he'd still like to own 2 of them. His play was to plug up some of the holes and watch the money roll in. Not to mention he now owns the coal mines, the coal plants, and the damn railroad that ships the coal lol.Comment
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The fact that you are actually looking forward to going on strike rather than just working speaks volumes.Originally posted by FreightTrain View PostComment
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Originally posted by Bassics View Post
No one around here can take a joke can they. Plus like I said they never let the railroad strike. They claim if we were to strike it would cost the economy 2 billion a day. Plus it looks bad when old ladys don't have any electricity to turn the heat on during the winter.Comment
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Use your big boy words. I have no idea where you're going with that.Originally posted by sig239 View PostComment
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typical union bullshit. think GM AMR YRC etcComment
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It's always interesting when a company has issues and can't cut the one cost that would make them effective again. Labor. Labor costs never go down with unions, you stack legacy costs on it and you wind up in a pyramid scheme that only works if you keep increasing the base forever, which is impossible so the business goes bankrupt.
You cannot have legacy costs for every worker from the time the company starts and all the new ones as well with constantly expanding benefits. At some point, X costs override Y income and then you either go bankrupt or ask for a bailout.
Remember when benefits weren't expected, they were a 'benefit' to entice good, hard working people to work? Now you have unions who threaten not to work if they don't get an increase during a depression.I wear a Fez. Fez-es are coolComment
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Oh really now? Name calling? You ever heard of the term "Ad hominem"? Go look it up.Originally posted by 2011GT View Post
Most of what i know about the AA bankruptcy I read in the Wall Street Journal over the past few days.
1. I said "The AA pilot union turned down a sweet deal for the pilots right before AA filed bankruptcy."
The pilots union did turn down what many of us would consider a sweet deal somewhere around November 15th (note the date on this article):
In another article we find more about the proposals that were rejected.
"American's latest "option A" proposal:
Offers a 4 percent average signing bonus, and then a 3 percent raise at 15 months, a 2 percent raise at 30 months and a 2 percent raise at 45 months.
Removes the hard monthly flying cap and creates an average monthly flying range of 72 to 83 hours with immediate productivity gains.
Gives pilots the choice of keeping their pension plans or changing to an age-based contribution plan.
Increases medical benefits with employee costs at 22 percent, increasing to 25 percent by the end of the contract.
Its "option B" proposal:
Offers a 5 percent average signing bonus, and then a 4 percent, 2 percent and 3 percent raise in year one, two and three, respectively, of the contract.
Removes the hard monthly flying cap and moves to an average monthly flying range of 72 to 83 hours with productivity gains phased in over the contract.
Immediately freezes pilots' pensions in the primary plan.
Keeps employee medical benefit costs at 19 percent through the contract."
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Apparently the talks broke down over a %7 difference in the starting bonuses between what american proposed and what the unions wanted.
Do you realize that times are tight and a lot of people are not getting raises at all this year, or are getting very small ones? And the airlines are fighting high fuel costs, and AA in particular has high labor costs? I think that if you were to look at that deal thru the lens of an average american and not from the standpoint of an entitled union member - it looks like a pretty sweet deal. Maybe you should start a poll and see what the members here think about it.
"But American has lost more than $12 billion in the past decade, and that's not sustainable. It has an $800 million disadvantage on labor costs, and there was no finessing that albatross any longer."
2. I said "The deal they'll get now out of the bankruptcy is probably going to be far worse."
"The APA union admits that bankruptcy strips them of any and all leverage in contract negotiations. The pilots also realize that their next contract will be settled by a judge."
In my business i've dealt with bankruptcy judges before (customers of ours going tits up and owning us money); they are a dour bunch and are very unlikely to give a deal comparable to the one that the union turned down. Turnabout is fair play, and the unions will be presented with a "take it or leave it" proposal now.
3. I said "Unions are out of touch."
From that article:
"It wasn't enough that the Allied Pilots Association would reject a contract offer with job security, pension protection, annual raises and a signing bonus. Negotiators also wanted management to eat some humble pie.
After leaving for lunch on a Friday in mid-November, they didn't bother to return to the negotiating table -- and notified their counterparts with a text message. A few days later, after passing on the contract, they said they'd take a much-needed break for the week of Thanksgiving.
Well, no need to rush the talks now. While the union rested, American executives worked through the holiday and weekend, so parent company AMR could file for Chapter 11 on Tuesday.
The union snubs probably won't be mentioned in the legal papers, but they're telling: American's future was dangling by a thread, banking on an 11th-hour contract with the pilots union, and negotiators were still playing petty games."
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The union was clearly fiddling while AA burned. They clearly overplayed their hand. And that's being out of touch.Comment
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No where did i state anything about the union causing AA's bankruptcy. They are only one of the cogs in the big wheel of AA.Originally posted by 2011GT View Post
But one thing you can't deny is AA's high labor costs.Comment
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Very well said.Originally posted by mikeb View PostOh really now? Name calling? You ever heard of the term "Ad hominem"? Go look it up.
Most of what i know about the AA bankruptcy I read in the Wall Street Journal over the past few days.
1. I said "The AA pilot union turned down a sweet deal for the pilots right before AA filed bankruptcy."
The pilots union did turn down what many of us would consider a sweet deal somewhere around November 15th (note the date on this article):
In another article we find more about the proposals that were rejected.
"American's latest "option A" proposal:
Offers a 4 percent average signing bonus, and then a 3 percent raise at 15 months, a 2 percent raise at 30 months and a 2 percent raise at 45 months.
Removes the hard monthly flying cap and creates an average monthly flying range of 72 to 83 hours with immediate productivity gains.
Gives pilots the choice of keeping their pension plans or changing to an age-based contribution plan.
Increases medical benefits with employee costs at 22 percent, increasing to 25 percent by the end of the contract.
Its "option B" proposal:
Offers a 5 percent average signing bonus, and then a 4 percent, 2 percent and 3 percent raise in year one, two and three, respectively, of the contract.
Removes the hard monthly flying cap and moves to an average monthly flying range of 72 to 83 hours with productivity gains phased in over the contract.
Immediately freezes pilots' pensions in the primary plan.
Keeps employee medical benefit costs at 19 percent through the contract."
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Apparently the talks broke down over a %7 difference in the starting bonuses between what american proposed and what the unions wanted.
Do you realize that times are tight and a lot of people are not getting raises at all this year, or are getting very small ones? And the airlines are fighting high fuel costs, and AA in particular has high labor costs? I think that if you were to look at that deal thru the lens of an average american and not from the standpoint of an entitled union member - it looks like a pretty sweet deal. Maybe you should start a poll and see what the members here think about it.
"But American has lost more than $12 billion in the past decade, and that's not sustainable. It has an $800 million disadvantage on labor costs, and there was no finessing that albatross any longer."
2. I said "The deal they'll get now out of the bankruptcy is probably going to be far worse."
"The APA union admits that bankruptcy strips them of any and all leverage in contract negotiations. The pilots also realize that their next contract will be settled by a judge."
In my business i've dealt with bankruptcy judges before (customers of ours going tits up and owning us money); they are a dour bunch and are very unlikely to give a deal comparable to the one that the union turned down. Turnabout is fair play, and the unions will be presented with a "take it or leave it" proposal now.
3. I said "Unions are out of touch."
From that article:
"It wasn't enough that the Allied Pilots Association would reject a contract offer with job security, pension protection, annual raises and a signing bonus. Negotiators also wanted management to eat some humble pie.
After leaving for lunch on a Friday in mid-November, they didn't bother to return to the negotiating table -- and notified their counterparts with a text message. A few days later, after passing on the contract, they said they'd take a much-needed break for the week of Thanksgiving.
Well, no need to rush the talks now. While the union rested, American executives worked through the holiday and weekend, so parent company AMR could file for Chapter 11 on Tuesday.
The union snubs probably won't be mentioned in the legal papers, but they're telling: American's future was dangling by a thread, banking on an 11th-hour contract with the pilots union, and negotiators were still playing petty games."
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The union was clearly fiddling while AA burned. They clearly overplayed their hand. And that's being out of touch.I wear a Fez. Fez-es are coolComment
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