Does God Want People to Go to Hell?

[BrianC]

Alright, Phillystang says God wants people to go to hell and sends them there against their will (Calvinist doctrine). So I have a question for Philly or another Calvinist:

2 Peter says that God is not "WILLING" that any should perish, but all come to repentance (be saved).

Philly will say this is only talking to the people in the church, but they're already saved. Why tell them that He's waiting for them to come to repentance in those verses? Makes no sense. So this statement is clearly meant for everyone in the world, and that God does not will anyone to go to hell. Besides, why does God need to tell Christians He's going to save them all when He's the one who chooses, not them (according to Philly's calvinist doctrine). He wouldn't worry about telling His people stuff like this - He's just save the people when He chose to do so and leave it at that.

Therefore, Philly, since you say God decides if a person goes to hell and their free-will doesn't matter, how do you reconcile this verse that says God doesn't will anyone to go to hell? Just curious is all...

[The King]

Mark 10:26-27 (KJV)

And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Though it is not possible for man to enter the Kingdom of God through his own free will, I read nothing that states God has pre-determined that anyone will go to hell. A man must admit that he is incapable of entering the Kingdom of God without grace, and that only God will have the final say on whether to extend that grace.

[exlude]

I was really, really hoping the OP wouldn't find us here.

[BrianC]

Mark 10:26-27 (KJV)

And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Though it is not possible for man to enter the Kingdom of God through his own free will, I read nothing that states God has pre-determined that anyone will go to hell. A man must admit that he is incapable of entering the Kingdom of God without grace, and that only God will have the final say on whether to extend that grace.

I'm just curious how Phillystang will answer.

[BrianC]

I was really, really hoping the OP wouldn't find us here.

I know a moderator. :P

[davbrucas]

I know a moderator. :P

Can you do us all a favor and move to Heaven tonite?

[The King]

I'm just curious how Phillystang will answer.

Is he here on this site?

Can you do us all a favor and move to Heaven tonite?

Sorry to tell you this doctor, but the Bible says man cannot get into heaven by his own works.

[davbrucas]

Sorry to tell you this doctor, but the Bible says man cannot get into heaven by his own works.

So believing in his heart and confessing with his mouth that Christ died on the cross for his sins isnt his own works? Christianity is so ridiculous...
The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie, who was his own father, can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree. Religion = legally protected psychosis.

[Denny]

So believing in his heart and confessing with his mouth that Christ died on the cross for his sins isnt his own works? Christianity is so ridiculous...
The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie, who was his own father, can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree. Religion = legally protected psychosis.

God loved us so much that He left it up to us to decide to choose Him. Salvation requires nothing less than perfection, as it should. Even trying to live to the best of our ability, sinless and living according to his Word; we all fall short of His expectations. You need to know it is not about commiting sins or not commiting sins. It's about knowing that you cannot achieve perfection without Him. In order to meet His expectations, you need His assistance. By not doing so, you're essentially saying that you can do it without Him, thus being just as perfect, if not better than Him.

Look, the whole reason Jesus came to the world was because God made several attempts to keep man on the track to Salvation. When it was made evident that man could not do it on his own (which it needed to be done to show us how we could not do it), Jesus came to do two things:

1. Show us how to live according to His WIll.
2. Make the ultimate sacrifice so that we do have an option for perfection, as our best attempt will still not do.

Even though perfection requires His assistance, we still have the option to exercise our own free will that He gave us. Even though there is a chance that we will reject Him, He STILL allows us to decide. It breaks His heart, but His love still allows us to decide.

The wages for sin is death. Perfection yeilds salvation. In order to reach perfection, you need to have Perfection take your place. Jesus did so by taking His perfection and placing Himself in death's path. His resurrection is Him conquoring death for us. It was His gift to us because He knows we can't do it ourselves.

His gift is what it is... a gift. It is undesrved and unearned. It is there to accept or reject. He did all the work for us.

I know you've probably heard all this before, Dave, as you're always on here just trying to get a rise out of believers and have no intent on understanding. I just hope my response reaches someone actually looking for answers in hopes that they research it for themselves.

[jdgregory84]

So believing in his heart and confessing with his mouth that Christ died on the cross for his sins isnt his own works? Christianity is so ridiculous...
The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie, who was his own father, can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree. Religion = legally protected psychosis.

You should teach Sunday school. That was funny as hell.

[Cooter]

So believing in his heart and confessing with his mouth that Christ died on the cross for his sins isnt his own works? Christianity is so ridiculous...
The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie, who was his own father, can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree. Religion = legally protected psychosis.

there is much awesome here...

let's get a burger... or some BBQ...

[The King]

You should teach Sunday school. That was funny as hell.

It might have been if it hadn't been essentially plagairized from a thread or two from the Canadian site posted earlier this year

[The King]

So believing in his heart and confessing with his mouth that Christ died on the cross for his sins isnt his own works? Christianity is so ridiculous...

The works to which I referred was the keeping of Mosaic Laws, which is that if a man kept every single one of the O.T. laws, (which no one except Jesus did), he might become justified and one with God.

James 2:10-11 (KJV)

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.


Simply believing in Christ and stating such are not considered works. Works are tangible manifestations of one's faith, e.g. giving of your time and resources for the benefit of others.

James 2:14-22 (KJV)

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

[BrianC]

So believing in his heart and confessing with his mouth that Christ died on the cross for his sins isnt his own works? Christianity is so ridiculous...
The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie, who was his own father, can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree. Religion = legally protected psychosis.

Alrighty, let's look at what you believe then. You believe that 15-20 billion years ago, the entire matter of the universe somehow appeared out of nothing (that's against science, by the way, because it's illogical and irrational), and this mass was smaller than the period at the end of this sentence. That's one dense period. Then, it began to spin extremely fast until it somehow stirred up enough friction to explode and expand into this great big universe we see today. By the way, that's also against science and reason and logic, because if that occurred, then everything should be evenly distributed throughout the universe and everything should spin the same direction... but it doesn't. Moons orbit different directions and spin different directions, planets spin different directions, solar systems rotate different directions and entire galaxies spin different directions. So, this is against science and logic. It's a belief, not science.

Then, about 4.5 billion years ago, a bunch of dust and gas collected and said, "Hey guys! Let's form a planet!" So, magically, Earth formed. By the way, that is also against science. It was disproved long ago by gas laws. So this is a belief, not science.

Then, about 3 billion years ago, it began to rain on the rocks, and this created oceans of slime. The slime magically came to life.

(By the way, this has also been disproved as possible, because in a laboratory, we can only create 3 proteins and only if oxygen does not exist in the environment. Yet, we know oxygen has always existed on earth and must exist for life to exist. Oh, and there are 20 proteins required for life to exist and for living things to be built. And those 20 proteins must be in the correct order and turned the same direction. The 3 proteins they can create in laboratories are never turned the right direction. Heck, we haven't even decoded the human genome, and anyone who tells you different is a liar or ignorant. In 2003, we were only 1/3000th of the way through decoding the genome. We're only a little further along today.)

So anyway, life forming out of slime is illogical, irrational and disproved (also known as NOT SCIENTIFIC). It's just a belief, not science, especially since science has disproved it.

So, this slime that magically came to life did so at the same time another slime came to life of the opposite sex. They got married and had little slime babies. Oh, they also found something to eat to survive too. And eventually, these nifty little slime babies kept reproducing and evolved into advanced complex beings called humans. Your great, great, great, great, great, great, great granddaddy was slime!

You believe all things have a common ancestor. So, you believe you and a frog have a common ancestor. Let's see... so, if in a fairytale a princess kisses a frog and it turns into a prince, that's just make-believe, because it happened instantly and we know that cannot happen... but if evolutionists say that the frog turned into a human over millions of years, that makes it true and scientific? LOL Wow... delusional much? That's a BELIEF, not science.

Let's recap:

You believe - Dirt came from nothingness, dirt exploded and created everything, and we all evolved from rocks 3 million years ago. Sounds perfectly reasonable and scientific to me!

I believe - An eternal God created everything in a perfect balance just as He said He did about 6,000 years ago.

Tell me, which takes more faith to believe in? And which is more absurd and illogical?

I mean, at least I can say that someone created everything in order to adhere to the logic that if something exists it was created. At least I have a solution for where the programming of DNA comes from, not a lame explanation of "it just happened that way". At least I have logic to my worldview. What do you have?

So, which of us is more absurd? And which of us believes in a religion rather than science? Because I guarantee, since neither of us can prove the origin of all things, neither of us is in the realm of science when it comes to origins. It's religious, not scientific. You believe in a religion of rocks evolving into man and everything coming from nothing - you just won't admit it, because you'd look like a complete idiot if you did.

[davbrucas]

God loved us so much that He left it up to us to decide to choose Him. Salvation requires nothing less than perfection, as it should. Even trying to live to the best of our ability, sinless and living according to his Word; we all fall short of His expectations. You need to know it is not about commiting sins or not commiting sins. It's about knowing that you cannot achieve perfection without Him. In order to meet His expectations, you need His assistance. By not doing so, you're essentially saying that you can do it without Him, thus being just as perfect, if not better than Him.

Look, the whole reason Jesus came to the world was because God made several attempts to keep man on the track to Salvation. When it was made evident that man could not do it on his own (which it needed to be done to show us how we could not do it), Jesus came to do two things:

1. Show us how to live according to His WIll.
2. Make the ultimate sacrifice so that we do have an option for perfection, as our best attempt will still not do.

Even though perfection requires His assistance, we still have the option to exercise our own free will that He gave us. Even though there is a chance that we will reject Him, He STILL allows us to decide. It breaks His heart, but His love still allows us to decide.

The wages for sin is death. Perfection yeilds salvation. In order to reach perfection, you need to have Perfection take your place. Jesus did so by taking His perfection and placing Himself in death's path. His resurrection is Him conquoring death for us. It was His gift to us because He knows we can't do it ourselves.

His gift is what it is... a gift. It is undesrved and unearned. It is there to accept or reject. He did all the work for us.

I know you've probably heard all this before, Dave, as you're always on here just trying to get a rise out of believers and have no intent on understanding. I just hope my response reaches someone actually looking for answers in hopes that they research it for themselves.

Could someone ever convince you to believe in Santa Claus?