Crossdressers should be in the military!

[Forever_frost]

Different from me? I've served with every race and nationality and with both sexes. I'm all about diversity. However when your private lives start causing policy to be changed to make you comfortable, then it's a problem. So you're okay with a guy who has a sex change being scored on PT as a woman right? What about the genetic women? You're putting them at an instant disadvantage as the man still has the man musculature he just had his shit pushed in and shaves more regularly. Fuck that. You want to be gay, transgendered, crossdressing? Do it on your own time. You want to serve? Adapt.

[Forever_frost]

thats the thing, you are a Marine Sailor Airman Soldier, 24/7 you must abide by a code of conduct and dress code while in civilian attire. you dont clock out at 5 and throw on your prom dress and prance around like a queer. that shit has no place in Americas military.

And if I get hit with a DWI, I don't only have the judge to worry about, I have the company commander, the battalion commander and your NCO's. You don't clock out, you don't have 'your own time.' From enlistment time to discharge, you're military.

You know what? Let's do away with weight and eyesight standards as well. Have to allow people on crutches and mental disorders in as well.

[Bassics]

Different from me? I've served with every race and nationality and with both sexes. I'm all about diversity. However when your private lives start causing policy to be changed to make you comfortable, then it's a problem. So you're okay with a guy who has a sex change being scored on PT as a woman right? What about the genetic women? You're putting them at an instant disadvantage as the man still has the man musculature he just had his shit pushed in and shaves more regularly. Fuck that. You want to be gay, transgendered, crossdressing? Do it on your own time. You want to serve? Adapt.

On the other hand, for sake of argument, why is there a male and female cutoff that is separate? If i am a general i measure things in part based on troop numbers. Why should that number vary based on what gender of the troops?

maybe fixing one would eliminate the other...

[racrguy]

thats the thing, you are a Marine Sailor Airman Soldier, 24/7 you must abide by a code of conduct and dress code while in civilian attire. you dont clock out at 5 and throw on your prom dress and prance around like a queer. that shit has no place in Americas military.

I'm at work, so Ceyko and FF will get a response when I can spend some time writing it out. I'm not saying they need to suslend the UCMJ or anything else. You hold homosexuals and transgender people to the same standards you hold everyone else to. I don't think y'all are picking up what I'm putting down. Let's say for example a tansgender person gets deployed. AFAIK even the hetero military personnel are required to stay in uniform the entire time they're deployed, so on the same token so would a transgender person and a homosexual. Will the road be a bit more difficult for those not considered "normal?" Yes. But that doesn't mean they can't serve their fourth just as well as the next recruit in line. One would hope that before joining up people will understand that they are held to the same standards that everyone else is held to in their gender and also receive the same "motivation" adjustments as well. I also hope that those already in the military are well thought enough to be able to look past arbitrary things like sexual preference or how amperson dresses/views themselves. Obviously the latter isn't the case because we're constantly having these discussions, so we must have then in order to change the thoughts.

[ceyko]

I'm at work, so Ceyko and FF will get a response when I can spend some time writing it out. I'm not saying they need to suslend the UCMJ or anything else. You hold homosexuals and transgender people to the same standards you hold everyone else to. I don't think y'all are picking up what I'm putting down. Let's say for example a tansgender person gets deployed. AFAIK even the hetero military personnel are required to stay in uniform the entire time they're deployed, so on the same token so would a transgender person and a homosexual. Will the road be a bit more difficult for those not considered "normal?" Yes. But that doesn't mean they can't serve their fourth just as well as the next recruit in line. One would hope that before joining up people will understand that they are held to the same standards that everyone else is held to in their gender and also receive the same "motivation" adjustments as well. I also hope that those already in the military are well thought enough to be able to look past arbitrary things like sexual preference or how amperson dresses/views themselves. Obviously the latter isn't the case because we're constantly having these discussions, so we must have then in order to change the thoughts.

You assume those who are not your standard heterosexual male act the same. Generally speaking there are double standards throughout the military. Hell, that's why women - who are supposed to be "equal" - have a different PFT standard.

Everything may look all pretty on paper, but it's a mess in reality.

Now again, I'm all for women serving separately from men based off what I saw when I was in and what's working for the Marines. Maybe TGs can get their own units too.

As far as me continuing this argument, I'm not going to do so. I know what I've seen in the past when concessions are made and I don't like it. I'm not changing my mind and you're not going to change yours. I'm not trying to be retarded here, but without seeing it for yourself - I do not understand how you can be so confident on how everything works.

[matts5.0]

fact of the mater is racrguy, until you have served your opinion doesnt carry much weight with me on the matter. i know you mean well, your all about equality, the thing is.. the military is not, plain and simple.

edit, maybe the army navy and airforce are(i doubt it) the Marines sure as hell isn't, people get enough shit just being weird, i know for sure the females take a lot of shit over the different standards, and they are tougher than 95% of civilian guys, if a gay or cross-dresser can handle the shit that comes with being that, and can perform and abide by the current standards then so be it. but i do not think those standards should change to suit them. the military is in the business of war and killing, plain and simple.

[racrguy]

You assume those who are not your standard heterosexual male act the same. Generally speaking there are double standards throughout the military. Hell, that's why women - who are supposed to be "equal" - have a different PFT standard.

Everything may look all pretty on paper, but it's a mess in reality.

Now again, I'm all for women serving separately from men based off what I saw when I was in and what's working for the Marines. Maybe TGs can get their own units too.

As far as me continuing this argument, I'm not going to do so. I know what I've seen in the past when concessions are made and I don't like it. I'm not changing my mind and you're not going to change yours. I'm not trying to be retarded here, but without seeing it for yourself - I do not understand how you can be so confident on how everything works.

I'm not saying give them concessions. I'm saying let them serve and hold them to the same standard everyone else is held to in regards to their gender. If your drivers license says male, your uniforms and PFT standards will be those of a male, and if it says female the standards will be those of a female. The only time you're allowed to deviate from your uniform is when you aren't on duty, the same as every other person in the military. I'm sure when you served you weren't required to be in uniform every second of every day (while not deployed.)

[matts5.0]

I'm not saying give them concessions. I'm saying let them serve and hold them to the same standard everyone else is held to in regards to their gender. If your drivers license says male, your uniforms and PFT standards will be those of a male, and if it says female the standards will be those of a female. The only time you're allowed to deviate from your uniform is when you aren't on duty, the same as every other person in the military. I'm sure when you served you weren't required to be in uniform every second of every day (while not deployed.)

civilian attire is supposed to reflect that of your service Charlies(at least the Marines) or proper pt gear.

[Forever_frost]

Can't do that racr, that's not holding the crossdresser to their gender identity which is the problem now. And on to Class A dress. Do you let the man wear the female class A or make them wear the male?

[Forever_frost]

civilian attire is supposed to reflect that of your service Charlies(at least the Marines) or proper pt gear.

Same in the Army and Air Force. You can't wear whatever you want when you're "off duty." You also can't get random tattoos or change your appearance at will either. If it's visible, it's under scrutiny. And you're never 'off duty' as you can be called in for a formation at any time, 24 hours a day. I've been called at 3 am for a 3:30 am formation because someone got drunk and passed out in town.

[racrguy]

civilian attire is supposed to reflect that of your service Charlies(at least the Marines) or proper pt gear.

So you're not allowed to wear jeans and a t-shirt or a dress, depending on gender.

Can't do that racr, that's not holding the crossdresser to their gender identity which is the problem now. And on to Class A dress. Do you let the man wear the female class A or make them wear the male?

I've already answered that question, you just didn't read.

[Forever_frost]

So you're not allowed to wear jeans and a t-shirt or a dress, depending on gender.



I've already answered that question, you just didn't read.

Actually you didn't. If you are acknowledging that a cross dresser has the right to do so in the military, then you are saying that they have teh right to be identified as the gender they are dressing as, do you permit them to wear the uniform of the gender they are claiming or of the one they truly are?

And your T shirts are limited by the messages on them and the jeans must be in 'good repair.' At any time, if you are thought to be in violation of your unit's dress code, you can be popped by your unit. You don't seem to understand exactly how little personal freedom you have in the military. They decide what your house looks like (can do off post inspections of your private residence and car), they decide your clothes to a degree, your PT, every aspect of your life.

You want to be a crossdresser/gay/ transgendered/furry? Cool. Don't enlist. Don't be part of a unit that demands and depends on conformity.

[racrguy]

Actually you didn't. If you are acknowledging that a cross dresser has the right to do so in the military, then you are saying that they have teh right to be identified as the gender they are dressing as, do you permit them to wear the uniform of the gender they are claiming or of the one they truly are?

And your T shirts are limited by the messages on them and the jeans must be in 'good repair.' At any time, if you are thought to be in violation of your unit's dress code, you can be popped by your unit. You don't seem to understand exactly how little personal freedom you have in the military. They decide what your house looks like (can do off post inspections of your private residence and car), they decide your clothes to a degree, your PT, every aspect of your life.

You want to be a crossdresser/gay/ transgendered/furry? Cool. Don't enlist. Don't be part of a unit that demands and depends on conformity.

Go back and read, then comprehend every post I've made. What I'm saying is so far above your head you can't even see it. Yet again I'm faced with a situation in which you don't understand what I'm telling you because you choose not to comprehend it, or are incapable of doing so.

And be honest, have you ever seen or heard of someone having their off duty clothing scrutinized? Sounds like a lot of capability for selective enforcement, and that's wrong. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[Forever_frost]

Actually, I have. You wouldn't know because you haven't served but the unit keeps VERY close eyes on their troops to ensure the unit looks good. In uniform and out. It's also why we handle so much in house without telling anyone outside of a company level of most things.

Since I don't comprehend, break it down for me. Afterall, I have brain damage and evidently am not able to keep up. Do you acknowledge the crossdresser as the sex they are biologically or that they dress up as and do you allow them to dress in the opposite sex's class A uniform or the one they are biologically?

Edit: Reread through things and you did answer me, my apology. However are you not being insensitive to their sexual identity and are you saying they should hide who they are in uniform? You're saying a cross dressing male/ transgendered male should be PT scored as a male and wear male Class A's though they identify as a woman? What about bathroom usage? Why are you wanting to go against their sexual identity and force them into a certain uniform? Aren't you accusing me of being closed minded for saying that they should conform?

[racrguy]

No, I'm adhering to definitions set forth by society. If they can get the state to acknowledge their gender change, allow them to wear the uniforms of the other sex. You seem to think that because I think that gays and other "deviate" behavior should be allowed in the military, it should be allowed to run rampant. That couldn't be farther from the truth. There are standards that must be met, and either they can meet them or they can't. And as far as being insensitive to their sexual identity, as long as they aren't "working" (I understand you're never truly off, as I've dealt with it) and aren't breaking the law, who cares?