What makes the bible true

[racrguy]

I believe you already know the answer to that.


All the good material in here and thats all you have?


Not Faith alone, but hope also because faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith is believing in what is true. It has two elements.
1) being convinced of the truth, being certain of reality, having evidence of unseen things.
2) believing, hoping in, embracing, seizing the truth.

Your definition of faith is highly skewed. Here's the correct definition:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith

faith
   /feɪθ/ Show Spelled[feyth] Show IPA
–noun
1.
confidence or trust in a person or thing
2.
belief that is not based on proof
3.
belief in god or in the doctrines or teachings of religion

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith

1faith
noun \ˈfāth\
plural faiths \ˈfāths, sometimes ˈfāthz\
Definition of FAITH
1
a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2
a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3
: something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>

http://oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_us1246069#m_en_us1246069

faith(faith)
Syllabification:

* On
* Off

Pronunciation:/fāTH, /
noun

*
1 complete trust or confidence in someone or something:this restores one's faith in politicians
*
2 strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
*
a system of religious belief:the Christian faith
*
a strongly held belief or theory:the faith that life will expand until it fills the universe



Now that we've established what faith really is. Notice in not one of the definitions does it mention truth. Do you have any evidence that corroborates the stories in the bible, or do you take it on faith?"

[BlackSnake]

Sounds to me that you are trying to imply that faith and belief are the same as. This is not so. For belief to be faith, it must light on what is certainly true.
Faith is the state of being convinced about what we hope for. It is the work of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God.

Rom 10:17 (NIV) Faith comes by hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Belief seperated from the truth is not faith.

[Maddhattter]

Sounds to me that you are trying to imply that faith and belief are the same as. This is not so. For belief to be faith, it must light on what is certainly true.
Faith is the state of being convinced about what we hope for. It is the work of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God.

Rom 10:17 (NIV) Faith comes by hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Belief seperated from the truth is not faith.

You claim to have faith in the existence of God. I won't argue that.

Then you define faith as "what is certainly true."(paraphrased) After being shown the definition of faith from 3 different sources.

Then you cite the bible as your source for the definition of faith.

I can only conclude that you are saying that the bible proves the existence of God and God makes the bible right. That is the definition of circular reasoning, making your entire argument fallacious.

If we can define words however we want, then what is the point of having languages? If the accepted, or denoted definitions of words can be changed at any time due to personal desire, how can communication occur?

I could, with the way you seem to think that words can change definitions at a whim, merely redefine God, and the bible to have it mean nothing at all. All while claiming that I've "schooled" all religious people, of all flavors.

Racrguy cited legitimate, and academically respected sources for his definitions. You choose a controversial book that won it's supremacy in the western world by the sword of it's followers during the Dark Ages. The validity and respectability of the sources are leagues apart, when any intelligent debate is to be had.

[racrguy]

Sounds to me that you are trying to imply that faith and belief are the same as. This is not so. For belief to be faith, it must light on what is certainly true.
Faith is the state of being convinced about what we hope for. It is the work of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God.

Rom 10:17 (NIV) Faith comes by hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Belief seperated from the truth is not faith.

I literally have no idea what to say to this other than what was said. Albeit, mine wouldn't be as verbose. You are completely uneducable.

All sorts of edit: Random Video I thought was entertaining, as you no longer are.

[BlackSnake]

Carnal faith and spiritual faith cannot be defined alike. It is different and quite frankly...I'm not sure how to convey this to you other than what I have stated thus far. But I'll work on it in hope that I can help you understand why faith in God is deeper.

[BERNIE MOSFET]

Faith is believing in what is true. It has two elements.
1) being convinced of the truth, being certain of reality, having evidence of unseen things.
2) believing, hoping in, embracing, seizing the truth.

I get what you are trying to say, but let me try to give you another perspective:

Faith is believing. Leave it at that.

Truth (not absolute or universal truth but truth) is tied so closely to perception, which is largely personal and varies greatly amongst individuals, as to be subjective. Truth to any individual is faith in their perception of reality. Not reality itself.

Christians perceive that the Holy Trinity is truth; the Bible is truth. To Christians, the Bible is evidence because they take it on faith that the events described did happen, are the word of God, and is immutable. To Christians, their perception of truth is absolute truth. Often enough punctuated by sanctimonious disposition which really sets people off.

For the non-believer, the Bible becomes insufficient because the perception is that the bible alone is a book. A really long, and sometimes boring one at that. If belief in the Trinity fails, the Bible is incapable of rescuing or cultivating faith by itself. The non-believer's truth lies in some other absolute truth like atheism or some other religion, or in the belief that metaphysical absolute truth cannot be known.

Sounds to me that you are trying to imply that faith and belief are the same as. This is not so. For belief to be faith, it must light on what is certainly true.
Faith is the state of being convinced about what we hope for. It is the work of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God.

Rom 10:17 (NIV) Faith comes by hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Belief seperated from the truth is not faith.

You have to see that Romans 10 is not telling you to thump your bible, but instead proselytize with the gospel - the core of Christianity. If you must use the bible, I recommend John 3:16 - and if that doesn't work, nothing else will. Either someone accepts the fundamental tenet first and the rest follows or it's all lost. You cannot argue faith with bible verses because they will be rejected summarily, without second thought.

[Maddhattter]

Carnal faith and spiritual faith cannot be defined alike. It is different and quite frankly...I'm not sure how to convey this to you other than what I have stated thus far. But I'll work on it in hope that I can help you understand why faith in God is deeper.

You've yet to indicate that there is a difference other than arbitrary lines you appear to have drawn to distance yourself from the word the bible states should be a staple point of your beliefs. Because a difference between "carnal faith" and "spiritual faith", or any other types of faith are not relavent. It's all faith.

I would request that your statements be as accurate as possible. To say I have faith, then later to state "not THAT kind of faith" is called the No True Scotsman fallacy. The more accurate your statements are, the less chance you have of having to back pedal.

I can find no reference to "Carnal faith" within the Bible, or any religious book. Nor could I find it referenced in any dictionary. If I missed it, please provide a citation.

However, you still fail to jump the hurdle of definitions. Faith, as defined in the English language, is believe without evidence, when put simply. Whether it is "carnal" or "spiritual", it is still faith. Adding an adjective to a noun doesn't change the noun, it only describes it.



MOSFET- While I agree with most of your post, I do contest the statement of atheism being any kind of "absolute truth." Atheism is the state of being without belief in a god or gods. That is not saying that God or gods do not exist, it's stating that Theists, those with belief in a god or gods, have not met their burden of proof to support their claim.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. No extraordinary evidence has ever been provided to me, so I'm not buying what they are selling. That doesn't mean that I'm selling something else.

[BlackSnake]

Spiritual faith is an active principle. Its a act both of the understanding and the will.

The English verb "to believe" means to have faith or to have trust. The English translation for the Greek verb for faith is always "believe in," but carnal readers do not necessarily distinguish "believing in" from "having a belief." The difference is crucial. A belief is a matter of the mind, where faith is of the whole person in trust. Belief is conceptual where faith is a matter of character.

[racrguy]

Blacksnake, why'd you delete your post agreeing with Mosfet?
You do realize that we're all telling you the same thing, just using different terminology.

Just curious, what's your level of education? I'm not going to use it against you, or belittle you in any way about it, I'm just curious.

[BlackSnake]

Blacksnake, why'd you delete your post agreeing with Mosfet?
You do realize that we're all telling you the same thing, just using different terminology.

Just curious, what's your level of education? I'm not going to use it against you, or belittle you in any way about it, I'm just curious.

I still agree with him to a great point, but didnt want it to confuse what Im trying to say.

10th grade education and it doesnt bother me what others say about it. I wish I could have finished, but I had a kid on the way and thought it best to raise him. I usually passed, but it wasnt easy for me. Took alot of effort on my part to slide by. School was never fun or interesting to me.

[racrguy]

I still agree with him to a great point, but didnt want it to confuse what Im trying to say.

But he's saying the exact same thing Maddhattter and I are saying. The only difference is we've worded it differently.

[BlackSnake]

But he's saying the exact same thing Maddhattter and I are saying. The only difference is we've worded it differently.

Yes but I dont think you believe that faith is the act of believing? Or am I just confused for trying to make a point.

[BERNIE MOSFET]

MOSFET- While I agree with most of your post, I do contest the statement of atheism being any kind of "absolute truth." Atheism is the state of being without belief in a god or gods. That is not saying that God or gods do not exist, it's stating that Theists, those with belief in a god or gods, have not met their burden of proof to support their claim.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. No extraordinary evidence has ever been provided to me, so I'm not buying what they are selling. That doesn't mean that I'm selling something else.

Hmm, I'd say that your idea of atheism is more in line with agnosticism. Agnostics are fence-sitters, so to speak. Neither disavowing the existence of deities or supernatural influences, nor accepting them at the point of faith. They want proof.

The atheists I've met pointedly reject all theology and supernatural anything, which is pretty absolute in terms.

[racrguy]

You are confused. Faith is belief without the requirement of proof.

I believe evolution to be true because there is observable, verifiable evidence to support it. I do not have faith that evolution is true.

Take aliens for example. People have faith that aliens exist because there is no observable verifiable evidence to support its existence. Belief in bigfoot requires faith because of a lack of evidence.

Is that saying there are no aliens? Absolutely not, there just isn't enough evidence to support a belief that they exist.

[Maddhattter]

Hmm, I'd say that your idea of atheism is more in line with agnosticism. Agnostics are fence-sitters, so to speak. Neither disavowing the existence of deities or supernatural influences, nor accepting them at the point of faith. They want proof.

The atheists I've met pointedly reject all theology and supernatural anything, which is pretty absolute in terms.

While I've only met a few athiests who would claim they know there is no supernatural, I'm not defining atheism by the atheists I've met or how I think it should be. I defining it by it's definition.

I agree that pure agnostics are fence-sitters. They believe that they cannot know the answer, so there is no point in taking a side.

Theists are those with belief in a god or gods.

Therefore, Atheists are those without a belief in a god or gods.

Now, when gnostic and agnostic are used as adjectives for theist and atheist, they slightly change the definition.

A Gnostic Theist is a theist who claims to know there is a god or gods.
An Agnostic Theist believes there is a god or gods, but doesn't claim to know.
A Gnostic Atheist claims to know there is no god or gods.
An Agnostic Atheist does not believe in a god or gods, but does not claim to know.

Long Story short, theism and atheism are statements of belief. Gnosticism and Agnosticism are statements of knowledge.