What makes the bible true

[Maddhattter]

So answer this...do you believe the person Jesus existed? Not do you believe He was God...but did He exist?

I have not seen any evidence that would show that Jesus, as the person in the bible, i.e. not just some guy whose name was Jesus, existed or that the bible has enough evidence to support said character's divinity.

Problem with the question is it's relevancy. Proof can change my mind, so what I believe, or what I lack belief in makes no difference. If the bible can be proven to be true, this would change my mind. This would also mean that the God and Jesus claim are true, by extension.

[Maddhattter]

How about reading them before you decide...that's my whole point. I didn't say they were scientific experts...I said there is a lot of science in the books.

The problem, in this regard, is that if they are not scientists, there is no reason to assume the science they give is sound, regardless of what science they claim.

I also have to say, that when Mr. McDowell’s personal website describes his book as “a Christian classic that provides a wealth of historical, archaeological, and bibliographical evidences for the basic tenets of Christian belief”, I’d say it safe to not read the book to judge the contents of said book. The only science he claims he gets into is archaeology. In 2000+ years, by archaeology alone, the Spider-man comics would have the same historical validity since many of the locations in the comic demonstrably exist. So, by your statement, the “very scientific/harder read” falls short of being capable of proving the bible scientifically. It would then be safe to assume that More Than a Carpenter would fall short as well, as it is less scientific, by your words.

I don't have a doctorate in physics but I know the law of gravity. So, by your standard that means when I tell you an apple will fall if you drop it...you shouldn't listen to me?

No, I should not listen to you. That doesn’t mean that you are wrong, just that I shouldn’t believe you, as you are not an expert in your field. If you are not an expert in your field, then there is no reason for me to think that you have all the foundational knowledge to be able to support your claim.

In the hypothetical scenario you give, you could show me that you are right. All you would have to do is perform a simple experiment; dropping said apple. In doing so, your science could be terribly wrong, but by the experiment meeting expectations, it’s the practical application of the claim that becomes relevant. Should the experiment follow expected results, we could tentatively agree with your gravity theory, but I would not believe your statement. I would be following the evidence of the experiment.


However, putting the analogy in the context of our conversation, if you were a, say, journalist and you were trying to tell me what string theory meant, I would have no reason to believe you. You could not and do not have the foundation of scientific knowledge that would be required to even interpret the data. Now, if you claimed that a person who has been shown to be an unreliable source, that would make your claim even less credible. Again, that would not mean that your interpretation is wrong, it just means that no one should listen to you on it because you, nor your source could be relied upon for an accurate interpretation.

The science is solid, read it and decide for yourself.

If the science is solid, the peer review process would eliminate any reason I would need to decide for myself. I’m sure that the books would move into topics I am not qualified to argue. The peer review process would have put those topics in front of others who are qualified to argue, so I wouldn’t have to decide. I could look at what others, who are experts, have said on the topic and defer to my betters in that regard.

If you want to believe Christianity is a farce fine but go to whomever you see fit as a reliable scientific mind that defends Christianity and listen to both sides. You judge the quality of the evidence from books I mentioned without even looking at them.

I have dismissed two of the three books without reading the books. I don’t argue this. However, above I explained why I did it, and how I am justified in doing so.

Watch the movie "Expelled", get on a apologetics board and talk with someone there about questions.

Seen it and researched the topics. The movie is intentionally misleading and provides no supporting evidence for their claims other than some arguments from ignorance, straw man fallacies and being out right dishonest in some places.

If I want to know about cars I come on a cars forum, if I want to know about the bible I don't go to a cars forum. Sadly I believe most Christians need to be able to defend their faith better, including myself.

Previously, you implied that a person's credentials were irrelevant when considering in what someone knows, I fail to see how you can hold both that point and the one above….?

There are many brilliant scientific minds out there who are Christians http://www.tektonics.org/scim/sciencemony.htm

There were monstrous people who were Christians as well, that used their religion to justify their actions. I’d assume that you would say that Hitler was wrong, so I fail to see how brilliant Christians do anything to validate or invalidate the biblical inerrancy claim. Hell, Newton was a self proclaimed alchemist. Just because someone is brilliant on one topic does not mean they make wise decisions in all topics.

We can both name names, compare education, argue all day and we will never have what anyone could consider a 100% answer.

Agreed. Science never has nor expects a 100% answer. All answers in science are tentative. There will be new information brought to light that will invalidate current theories, just like we have replaced or supplanted old theories.

If we could...there would be no debate about it. A certain amount of faith is required on both sides.

I could not flatly agree or disagree with you and be totally honest. Both sides to have a certain amount of faith, but atheistic beliefs, in general, have a different kind of faith than theistic beliefs. If you want me to expand on this topic more, I could find the post or two I’ve made explaining this and repost them. However, I think it would be easier for me, and more informative to you, if you were to read this thread and jdgregory’s thread and see the posts for yourself, in context.

Again, my point is that if you are looking to answers to one of life's most important questions...it might be wise to do your research and not just take the word of some guy (Any of us) on a mustang forum.

Again, we agree. We should look for as many sources as possible, weigh them, via the scientific method, and accumulate all valid data. Then use that to come to a consensus. This is how the peer review process in science works.

We must also concede that we could be wrong. I can’t speak for you, or anyone else, but if I’m wrong, I want to be shown how I am wrong, which would require evidence.

Here is a link I found...never been on it before but it looks good for anyone interested http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/answers.html

It’s always a good idea to check your sources before you post them. You never know when you might endorse a site that attempts to make an honest argument in favor of demonic possession, which that site has an article doing.

[stephen4785]

WRONG. As already stated several times in this thread, science has no use for faith, and will not accept it.

I also refuse science from a source that isn't an authority on the subject just like I will refuse counseling from a person that doesn't have a degree (Dr. Phil) or legal counsel from someone who doesn't have the accreditation required to practice law.

For instance, say I had a medical problem, would it be a smarter decision to seek your help, or that of Dr. Dave's? Essentially you're telling me to go to you for my cure vs the good Dr.

And your law of gravity analogy doesn't work. You're quoting the material from a valid source.

How do you know if the science in those books is a from a "Valid source" or not? So, you refuse counsel from anyone who is not a Dr but you come one here to get counsel on the mysteries of God from guys on here? Follow your own logic and go to a Dr of Divinity and see if your arguments can stand with them.
"For the Christian, the ultimate expression of truth is found in the person of Jesus who said, ""I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life and no one comes to the father but through me..." (John 14:6). Jesus, who claimed to be divine, performed many miracles, and rose from the dead said that he alone was the Truth. He was either right or wrong. There is no in-between. If Jesus is wrong, then Christianity is a wrong. If Jesus did not rise from the dead, then we should abandon our faith because he would be no different than anyone else. If Jesus is not God in flesh, then we should denounce him as a madman because you can't claim to be God and be sane -- unless the claim is true. Therefore, if what Jesus said about himself is true, then Christianity is true."
So answer this...do you believe the person Jesus existed? Not do you believe He was God...but did He exist?

[racrguy]

WRONG. As already stated several times in this thread, science has no use for faith, and will not accept it.

I also refuse science from a source that isn't an authority on the subject just like I will refuse counseling from a person that doesn't have a degree (Dr. Phil) or legal counsel from someone who doesn't have the accreditation required to practice law.

For instance, say I had a medical problem, would it be a smarter decision to seek your help, or that of Dr. Dave's? Essentially you're telling me to go to you for my cure vs the good Dr.

And your law of gravity analogy doesn't work. You're quoting the material from a valid source.

[stephen4785]

So, what you’re basically saying here is we should take our high level scientific evidence from Josh McDowell, who has a whole Bachelors of Arts as his highest legitimate educational achievement, or from Lee Strobel, a man whose academic accolades include a Bachelors for Journalism and a Masters in Law. These are the scientific experts that are supposed to show us the “educated” scientific view of Christianity?

While I admit, I’ve not touched either of Mr. McDowell’s books, his credentials to discuss the topic of science don’t bode well for the man.

As for Mr. Strobel, you expect a man who converted by citing the Kalam cosmological argument as a reason, to discuss the science that he is not trained in as well? Or perhaps, all the time he spent with Michael Behe, who was shown to be either intentionally dishonest or, at best, incredulous during the Kitzmiller v. Dover trial. You give some stand up sources for supposed scientific support for Christianity.


No disagreement here. However, I don’t remember ever seeing anyone make the claim otherwise. If someone did, please point it out. If no one did, the above point is irrelevant to the topic.



I’d say that you’re doing the members of this board a great disservice. You basically stated that all the people that stand on your side of the fence that frequent this board are uneducated.

I do not remember anywhere on this thread that stated that only the uneducated need reply. It seemed to me that the question was available for anyone to respond to, and therefore Racrguy did not “ask some un-educated Christian” unless you do the people on this board the great disservice I referenced above.

Edit: It didn’t dawn on me until after I posted that your implications of the Christians of these forums being uneducated precludes the acceptance of your evidence, as you would be just as uneducated if you are a Christian on this board.

How about reading them before you decide...that's my whole point. I didn't say they were scientific experts...I said there is a lot of science in the books. I don't have a doctorate in physics but I know the law of gravity. So, by your standard that means when I tell you an apple will fall if you drop it...you shouldn't listen to me? The science is solid, read it and decide for yourself. If you want to believe Christianity is a farce fine but go to whomever you see fit as a reliable scientific mind that defends Christianity and listen to both sides. You judge the quality of the evidence from books I mentioned without even looking at them. Watch the movie "Expelled", get on a apologetics board and talk with someone there about questions. If I want to know about cars I come on a cars forum, if I want to know about the bible I don't go to a cars forum. Sadly I believe most Christians need to be able to defend their faith better, including myself. There are many brilliant scientific minds out there who are Christians http://www.tektonics.org/scim/sciencemony.htm We can both name names, compare education, argue all day and we will never have what anyone could consider a 100% answer. If we could...there would be no debate about it. A certain amount of faith is required on both sides.
Again, my point is that if you are looking to answers to one of life's most important questions...it might be wise to do your research and not just take the word of some guy (Any of us) on a mustang forum.
Here is a link I found...never been on it before but it looks good for anyone interested http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/answers.html

[davbrucas]

[racrguy]

Admittedly, I didn't read the entire thread(just the first page), and I'm not a religious person at all, but what response are you looking for? Someone found God's footprint somewhere? A vile of Jesus' blood found somewhere? A hidden youtube clip of him performing a miracle?

Theists have told me numerous times that their faith is logical. If it is logical, surely there must be some evidence that backs up their claims. To the best of my knowledge there hasn't been any that has satisfactorily stood up to even the slightest amount of scrutiny. I'm merely looking for some evidence in support of the bible that will withstand the same level of skepticism that we apply to standard scientific hypothesis.

[Maddhattter]

If you want more of a scientific view of Christianity and why we believe, try reading the book by Josh McDowell called "More than a Carpenter" which is an easier read..."Evidence that demands a Verdict" is basically the same book but very scientific/harder read.... or "The Case for Christ," by Lee Stroble. Both of these men were atheists who set out to disprove Christianity through science and ended up becoming Christians. There is a lot of science in the books.

So, what you’re basically saying here is we should take our high level scientific evidence from Josh McDowell, who has a whole Bachelors of Arts as his highest legitimate educational achievement, or from Lee Strobel, a man whose academic accolades include a Bachelors for Journalism and a Masters in Law. These are the scientific experts that are supposed to show us the “educated” scientific view of Christianity?

While I admit, I’ve not touched either of Mr. McDowell’s books, his credentials to discuss the topic of science don’t bode well for the man.

As for Mr. Strobel, you expect a man who converted by citing the Kalam cosmological argument as a reason, to discuss the science that he is not trained in as well? Or perhaps, all the time he spent with Michael Behe, who was shown to be either intentionally dishonest or, at best, incredulous during the Kitzmiller v. Dover trial. You give some stand up sources for supposed scientific support for Christianity.

Everyone has the right to believe what they want

No disagreement here. However, I don’t remember ever seeing anyone make the claim otherwise. If someone did, please point it out. If no one did, the above point is irrelevant to the topic.

but my opinion is that people think Christians are stupid for believing in God, or not believing in evolution or whatever...but they don't really research the science of what we believe from an educated Christian's view. They ask some un-educated Christian why they believe in God and their answer is "Because the bible says so" and they are understandably not impressed. At least research your questions through a Christian who can defend their faith and then make your decision having all the information from both points of view.

I’d say that you’re doing the members of this board a great disservice. You basically stated that all the people that stand on your side of the fence that frequent this board are uneducated.

I do not remember anywhere on this thread that stated that only the uneducated need reply. It seemed to me that the question was available for anyone to respond to, and therefore Racrguy did not “ask some un-educated Christian” unless you do the people on this board the great disservice I referenced above.

Edit: It didn’t dawn on me until after I posted that your implications of the Christians of these forums being uneducated precludes the acceptance of your evidence, as you would be just as uneducated if you are a Christian on this board.

[The King]

Thanks...I think!

You are correct (I shoulda used a smilie)

[stephen4785]

If you want more of a scientific view of Christianity and why we believe, try reading the book by Josh McDowell called "More than a Carpenter" which is an easier read..."Evidence that demands a Verdict" is basically the same book but very scientific/harder read.... or "The Case for Christ," by Lee Stroble. Both of these men were atheists who set out to disprove Christianity through science and ended up becoming Christians. There is a lot of science in the books. Everyone has the right to believe what they want but my opinion is that people think Christians are stupid for believing in God, or not believing in evolution or whatever...but they don't really research the science of what we believe from an educated Christian's view. They ask some un-educated Christian why they believe in God and their answer is "Because the bible says so" and they are understandably not impressed. At least research your questions through a Christian who can defend their faith and then make your decision having all the information from both points of view.

[davbrucas]

I overlooked that Dave, thanks for pointing that out.

You have a vile sense of humour.....

Thanks...I think!

[The King]

LoL at this pun.

I overlooked that Dave, thanks for pointing that out.

You have a vile sense of humour.....

[davbrucas]

A vile of Jesus' blood...

LoL at this pun.

[kanetrain]

Racrguy

Admittedly, I didn't read the entire thread(just the first page), and I'm not a religious person at all, but what response are you looking for? Someone found God's footprint somewhere? A vile of Jesus' blood found somewhere? A hidden youtube clip of him performing a miracle?

[The King]

noone said you have to believe the bible is true. but when the time comes dont go crying over it. your either a believer or your not

I disagree. Either God did what He said He would do, and Jesus did what He said He did, or they did not. The premise of Christianity is that they did. If you believe that they did, and profess to believe in Christianity, you must therefore accept everything recorded in the Bible regarding God and Jesus as true and be willing to openly say so.