Finally going to get paid

[turboskull1]

What you're saying is that you have so little confidence in your abilities that you are only marketable as a group instead of as an individual, right?

No, what I am getting at and what you are too blind to see is the fact that corporate America has become so powerful and greedy, the working class needs the power of numbers to keep the checks and balances. Everyone wants to use GM as an example of unions running a company into the ground, but you rarely hear the statistics of blue collar union pay versus white collar management pay. It wasn't the union who brought GM down, it was the insane amount of corporate excess spent on frivolity for the white collar execs, and their grossly inflated salaries and benefit packages.

[turboskull1]

Yep, you know absolutely nothing about the reenlistment process. Thanks.

So you didn't receive any sort of pay raise or re-enlistment bonus, no sort of monetary increase whatsoever? I only have a few military friends, but almost every friend that has re-enlisted did so for more tuition or some sort of cash bonus.

[stevo]

So when you took your current job assuming that you are employed, you expected no wage increase over time? How is this any different than the unions re-negotiating our wage and welfare contract? The standard that I used for Forever Frost is the same for everyone, we all make life choices as to what we are willing to do and to what level of compensation we expect. You might call it a double standard, I just call it making smart career choices.

I WOULD NOT want to work at a company that rewards someone due to how long they have been on the job. I WOULD want to work at a company that rewards someone for doing a better job, regardless of time working at the company.

Stevo

[turboskull1]

You do realize that business tries to get rid of unions only to have their places vandalized and the shops shut down and barricaded by unions and the illegal immigrants they hire to walk the picket line because the 'workers' can't be bother to.

You realize that large corporations lay off by the hundreds with absolute disregard for the welfare of the workers who made them rich, all in the pursuit of a larger profit? Sounds like tit for tat to me. It's a crying shame that we as Americans want to protect corporate greed hiding under the guise of capitalism, just to fatten the already grossly swollen wallets of corporate America. It's time to wake up America and re-take what our founding fathers envisioned for us as a nation!

[FreightTrain]

I WOULD NOT want to work at a company that rewards someone due to how long they have been on the job. I WOULD want to work at a company that rewards someone for doing a better job, regardless of time working at the company.

Stevo

I got a question for you. How does the company you work for award vacation time, personal leave, or sick days? How do they decide who goes on vacation at what time?

Union or not I'd bet it's all based on seniority and time with the company. So your not going to work for a company that gives 5 weeks vacation to an employee that has been there 20 years and only 1 week to the guy that just got hired. I mean vacation time is a reward and viewed as compensation.

So I guess by your value system your going to be unemployed because there isn't a company in country that doesn't have some sort of seniority based rewards.

[Forever_frost]

Didn't you sign a contract spelling out wages and benefits over a specified time period? Were not pay raises figured in, based upon time and rank? If you re-enlist, is not a new contract signed, usually with some sort of bonus? Why should you get a re-enlistment bonus, why not stick to the original agreement that you had with Uncle Sam? I can tell you why, because eveyone wants to get ahead and do the best that they can for their families, and to do so wages must rise in proprtion to ones needs or at least keep up with the rate of inflation. You signing a multi year enlistment contract is no different than the unions, both sides are in agreement with what is considered a fair amount of compensation for the specified time frame, and when the time is up re-negotiating begins.

Have you ever served? Yes, I signed a contract with wages listed and those wages get changed based on the Congress. Same as you signed your contract and that contract should be changeable according to the needs of the business. Not everyone gets reenlistment contracts and we dont' have anyone negotiating our contracts for us. We go before the guy and he tells us what is out there for us to reenlist. Also, we can't walk out if we dont' like our pay AND we can't strike. Let's see what happens if you get tired of your contract before it ends. YOu strike. Dont' try to compare the unions to the military. You fail. Badly.

[Forever_frost]

I WOULD NOT want to work at a company that rewards someone due to how long they have been on the job. I WOULD want to work at a company that rewards someone for doing a better job, regardless of time working at the company.

Stevo

This

[Forever_frost]

You realize that large corporations lay off by the hundreds with absolute disregard for the welfare of the workers who made them rich, all in the pursuit of a larger profit? Sounds like tit for tat to me. It's a crying shame that we as Americans want to protect corporate greed hiding under the guise of capitalism, just to fatten the already grossly swollen wallets of corporate America. It's time to wake up America and re-take what our founding fathers envisioned for us as a nation!

You do know that the whole point of a company is the make a profit, right? It's not to create jobs, it's not to pay unions, it's to make a profit. Don't start with 'disregard for welfare of the workers.' Are you saying that there are no federal laws protecting the workers or is that the job of the unions?

[turboskull1]

You do know that the whole point of a company is the make a profit, right? It's not to create jobs, it's not to pay unions, it's to make a profit. Don't start with 'disregard for welfare of the workers.' Are you saying that there are no federal laws protecting the workers or is that the job of the unions?

Don't try to teach me economics 101, yes as a former small business owner I realize that you must turn a profit to keep the doors open. The problem is profit is ALL the corporations care about, while as a small business owner profit was important, but so was the welfare of my employees, not just blind lust for the all mighty buck. Do I believe that unions are a fix all for Americas labor force, HELL NO, do I believe that all jobs should be unionized, nope, not even close. What I can tell you is that when deaing with a large corporation with several thousand employees, collective bargaining becomes a necessary evil, as most corporations can not be trusted to find a happy balance between profit and fairness to their employees.

[turboskull1]

Have you ever served? Yes, I signed a contract with wages listed and those wages get changed based on the Congress. Same as you signed your contract and that contract should be changeable according to the needs of the business. Not everyone gets reenlistment contracts and we dont' have anyone negotiating our contracts for us. We go before the guy and he tells us what is out there for us to reenlist. Also, we can't walk out if we dont' like our pay AND we can't strike. Let's see what happens if you get tired of your contract before it ends. YOu strike. Dont' try to compare the unions to the military. You fail. Badly.

Well, I hate to burst your bubble but since the rail road is so important to the U.S. economy we are not allowed to strike. Look, I truly appreciate your service to this country, but why in God's name would anyone enlist in the military unless they felt a strong obligation to serve their country? If you enlisted out of sense of obligation, then your amount of pay should have been a non issue, and if you recall, YOU were the one who brought the military into this conversation. To answer your question of if I have ever served, no I have not, but I would not hesitate a moment to serve my country if a TRUE need ever arose, and you would not hear me bitching about the pay. To be honest I feel like the military should bring back the draft, seems like a lot of the recruits are either minority or come from a poor back ground, and are just looking for what seems to be a easy way out without realizing the seriousness of the situation that they have placed themselves in. I know that I have wandered off our topic of unions, but you seem to be quite bitter about your treatment by our government, but you need to remember the decision was YOURS to make.

[Forever_frost]

Actually, I'm not. I love the military and I would do it again in a heartbeat. I never really cared too much about the pay because I loved my job. However, you compared my contract to yours, where you can not get fired, if you have seniority you are pretty much able to sit on your ass whereas in the infantry, it doesn't matter what my contract says, I do whatever the Army tells me and if I don't like it, tough.

I do love the comment about a 'true need.' What the fuck is a 'true need?' china invades? The Soviets parachute over Colorado? If there was a draft you wouldn't have the option to talk about pay, it'd be mandatory. And you're still missing the point. Unions are killing business and if you don't want to join a union, you can't get the job. If you and I were going for the same job, I was more skilled and would be a better asset than you but I refused to join the union, I'd be denied the job because union wouldn't let me work there. See the similarity to the mob? No kickbacks, Joey doesn't let you work. You try to get a job during a union strike and you get knees busted and your car vandalized. Sound civil? Sound like looking out for the people? What about those legacy golf courses the unions have? What do unions produce anyway? You could do away with every one of them and business would thrive whereas you expand unions and you kill industry. Want to know what happened with GM? GM wasn't making any money but there were still on the line for legacy costs AND more benefits because the UAW wouldn't bend. They didn't care that GM was bleeding and couldn't afford it anymore. It was "Well my contract states..."

I guess you didn't hear about the plant that was going out of business and a company stepped in to buy it but wouldn't take the union workers with it. The union blocked the sale and the plant closed. All because unions do not bend, they do not care about the company and they don't care about the people. What they DO care about is the union dues

[turboskull1]

Actually, I'm not. I love the military and I would do it again in a heartbeat. I never really cared too much about the pay because I loved my job. However, you compared my contract to yours, where you can not get fired, if you have seniority you are pretty much able to sit on your ass whereas in the infantry, it doesn't matter what my contract says, I do whatever the Army tells me and if I don't like it, tough.

I do love the comment about a 'true need.' What the fuck is a 'true need?' china invades? The Soviets parachute over Colorado? If there was a draft you wouldn't have the option to talk about pay, it'd be mandatory. And you're still missing the point. Unions are killing business and if you don't want to join a union, you can't get the job. If you and I were going for the same job, I was more skilled and would be a better asset than you but I refused to join the union, I'd be denied the job because union wouldn't let me work there. See the similarity to the mob? No kickbacks, Joey doesn't let you work. You try to get a job during a union strike and you get knees busted and your car vandalized. Sound civil? Sound like looking out for the people? What about those legacy golf courses the unions have? What do unions produce anyway? You could do away with every one of them and business would thrive whereas you expand unions and you kill industry. Want to know what happened with GM? GM wasn't making any money but there were still on the line for legacy costs AND more benefits because the UAW wouldn't bend. They didn't care that GM was bleeding and couldn't afford it anymore. It was "Well my contract states..."

I guess you didn't hear about the plant that was going out of business and a company stepped in to buy it but wouldn't take the union workers with it. The union blocked the sale and the plant closed. All because unions do not bend, they do not care about the company and they don't care about the people. What they DO care about is the union dues

Seems to me that neither one of us is going to bend in our opinion of Unions and what they stand for, I think that we have both made valid points in our argument, and I believe that we could both agree that there would be no need for any unions, or labor laws for that matter if corporate America had any moral fiber left. I am glad to hear that you did join up because of a love for your country, and we all owe people like yourself a huge debt, without your service a discussion like this would not even be necessary because we would all be living in some work camp.

[Forever_frost]

I'm good with that. You keep bashing the evil corporations and I'll keep talking about the fucktard, blood sucking unions that are about as necessary as the steam engine

[stevo]

I got a question for you. How does the company you work for award vacation time, personal leave, or sick days? How do they decide who goes on vacation at what time?

Union or not I'd bet it's all based on seniority and time with the company. So your not going to work for a company that gives 5 weeks vacation to an employee that has been there 20 years and only 1 week to the guy that just got hired. I mean vacation time is a reward and viewed as compensation.

So I guess by your value system your going to be unemployed because there isn't a company in country that doesn't have some sort of seniority based rewards.

I work for myself now, been that way for around 10 years. The last company that I worked for gave everyone a paid vacation if you made it passed the 90 day probation period, everyone got one week, and it was all done at the same time every year. From senior department supervisors to the broom guy that dusted out the fittings room, to the secretaries up front, were given the same treatments. It made everyone feel equal, instead of separating everyone into different cliques based on 'seniority'. Every six months an employee could file a paper with his supervisor requesting a review of his work quality in lew of a raise. Some people never got raises, some got nice raises. Some apprentices made close to what the plumbers/pipefitters made, due to them busting ass, doing great work and having great ideas. The slackers seldom got raises, including several that had been there 10+ years. As a fresh apprentice in the early 90's, I hired on at $7.50, at 6 months it was raised to $11.50. After another 6 months, I was brought up to $16 an hour. I had my own company truck that I drove home as an apprentice, which mostly only the licensed plumbers could do. The slack-jawed shovel-props stayed in the single digit per hour pay scale. Many journeyman plumbers never made it passed the $20 range due to being slow,doing a poor job, and having shitty work ethics. Many made some real cash for being good at their job.

See this is how it is done in the non-union world. People are compensated on their talents and value, not compensated due to how many years they have been with the company. This process rewards productiveness and hard work.

Stevo

[Denny]

This thread is full of collective FAIL! LMAO!