Rangers 2012

[Slowhand]

I'm good. It does stick in my craw just a little. It's funny how forgiving fans can be.

I think it's funny how deeply personally fans can take shit that doesn't involve them in the least.

[mstng86]

I think it's funny how deeply personally fans can take shit that doesn't involve them in the least.

You mean like you and anything Senna.

[Vertnut]

I think it's funny how deeply personally fans can take shit that doesn't involve them in the least.

LOL. That what "fans" are. Not all of us are sell-outs. If they don't start hitting the ball, Ryan and Koufax in their "Hey Day" won't save the season.

[Vertnut]

You mean like you and anything Senna.

Yeah. I really don't get that statement. Fans DO take things personally, or your not a "fan".

[Geor!]

Yeah. I really don't get that statement. Fans DO take things personally, or your not a "fan".

Most Cowboys fans aren't.

[Slowhand]

You mean like you and anything Senna.

How does that compare? That was a discussion over who is better, not whether a pitcher "dissed" my hometown or "screwed" my team.

Yeah. I really don't get that statement. Fans DO take things personally, or your not a "fan".

I don't get how taking things personally makes you a better fan. It just means you're ignoring the reality of the market in baseball, which is why despite all their protests, a fan that considers himself a great fan because of his ability to take things personally would make a horrendous GM.

The dude's kid is sick, he didn't care for CJ Wilson in the least, and going to the likelihood of going to the World Series back to back isn't particularly high. I can see how he viewed Philly as having a more stable future for putting together a championship run. Has it worked out that way? Not at all. But I think you'd be remiss to suggest that the Rangers were a favorite to defend after 2010. It wasn't until this season that people started treating the Rangers like a powerhouse, fans included.

It's about making smart baseball decisions right now if you want to win. You can stick by your butthurt little guns and cry foul about comments that Lee made that people read more into that was probably really there, or you can choose to see the upside in what he brings to the table.

We complained for years that Hicks was never going to do what he needed to to put together a real championship team. Now we have someone in place that's willing to do whatever it takes and you're pumping the brakes because of moral objections? Come on, man. That doesn't make you any more a Ranger fan than it makes Rick Modena a savant.

[Vertnut]

How does that compare? That was a discussion over who is better, not whether a pitcher "dissed" my hometown or "screwed" my team.



I don't get how taking things personally makes you a better fan. It just means you're ignoring the reality of the market in baseball, which is why despite all their protests, a fan that considers himself a great fan because of his ability to take things personally would make a horrendous GM.

The dude's kid is sick, he didn't care for CJ Wilson in the least, and going to the likelihood of going to the World Series back to back isn't particularly high. I can see how he viewed Philly as having a more stable future for putting together a championship run. Has it worked out that way? Not at all. But I think you'd be remiss to suggest that the Rangers were a favorite to defend after 2010. It wasn't until this season that people started treating the Rangers like a powerhouse, fans included.

It's about making smart baseball decisions right now if you want to win. You can stick by your butthurt little guns and cry foul about comments that Lee made that people read more into that was probably really there, or you can choose to see the upside in what he brings to the table.

We complained for years that Hicks was never going to do what he needed to to put together a real championship team. Now we have someone in place that's willing to do whatever it takes and you're pumping the brakes because of moral objections? Come on, man. That doesn't make you any more a Ranger fan than it makes Rick Modena a savant.

The kid was 4 months old when diagnosed, and is 11 years old and has been in remission for years. It was a load of crap. I'm no more a fan than the next guy, but I do prefer a little loyalty. I said I was OK with it, but I'm not going to hit my knee's like you would do when he walks out of the dugout.

[Slowhand]

The kid was 4 months old when diagnosed, and is 11 years old and has been in remission for years. It was a load of crap. I'm no more a fan than the next guy, but I do prefer a little loyalty. I said I was OK with it, but I'm not going to hit my knee's like you would do when he walks out of the dugout.

Okay, so what if the kid thing was a load of crap (because childhood cancer doesn't cause any long term health issues and certainly never comes back); what about the rest of issue? What if he was of the opinion that going back to the Phillies put him in a better position to win a championship? Is that really supposed to be such an affront to Rangers fans that the guy wants to win?

I'm not going to hit my knees when he walks out, but I wasn't ever ready to stone him when he left either.

He's a big salary ace. He's not Michael Young, or Derek Holland or Rusty Greer; no one is ever going to feel about Cliff Lee like they do the homegrown, long term players, nor will they feel that way about any free agent/big trade acquisition that the Rangers make. But that's not why you pick up a Cliff Lee or a Greinke or what have you. You pick them up because they make your team better.

It's a question of whether he makes this team better or not. If you think he's going to be an issue in the clubhouse then that's a different story, but I don't think that'll be the case. If it is, feel free to say you told me so.

[Vertnut]

Okay, so what if the kid thing was a load of crap (because childhood cancer doesn't cause any long term health issues and certainly never comes back); what about the rest of issue? What if he was of the opinion that going back to the Phillies put him in a better position to win a championship? Is that really supposed to be such an affront to Rangers fans that the guy wants to win?

I'm not going to hit my knees when he walks out, but I wasn't ever ready to stone him when he left either.

He's a big salary ace. He's not Michael Young, or Derek Holland or Rusty Greer; no one is ever going to feel about Cliff Lee like they do the homegrown, long term players, nor will they feel that way about any free agent/big trade acquisition that the Rangers make. But that's not why you pick up a Cliff Lee or a Greinke or what have you. You pick them up because they make your team better.

It's a question of whether he makes this team better or not. If you think he's going to be an issue in the clubhouse then that's a different story, but I don't think that'll be the case. If it is, feel free to say you told me so.

He might help, but he's 1-6 right now, isn't he? ERA around 4.00? $21.5 million this season, and $25 million in '13.

[Mike]

He might help, but he's 1-6 right now, isn't he? ERA around 4.00? $21.5 million this season, and $25 million in '13.

I watch 80% of phillies games, I can tell you for the most part, his record isn't a great indication of his pitching this season. For the first 3 months of the season his era was pretty close to Hamels, who's had 10 wins at the time. Lee has gotten bitten by some awful defense, and no run support.
This past month he's struggled to locate a little, and has been very susceptible to giving up hits. I wouldn't be all that upset to see him leave for the right pieces in return. If Lee can't locate, he isn't a $25million per season pitcher right now.

[Slowhand]

He might help, but he's 1-6 right now, isn't he? ERA around 4.00? $21.5 million this season, and $25 million in '13.

His W/L is largely irrelevant, as he pitched very well to start the season and got zero run support. He did have a bad start last week.

If the Rangers do pick him up, you can bet on the Phillies picking up part of his contract. Estimates seem to be that the Rangers will pay for $15-16mm of his salary if they acquire him, with the Phillies picking the rest up.

Whether or not he'll help is a different discussion from the average Cowboys fan's sentiments on his return, though. His potential contributions are debatable for certain.

Doesn't look like the deal is going to happen to me. The Rangers seem reluctant to give up Olt (I'd rather give up Perez than Olt, to be honest, but that's just me). And the Phils want top quality prospects, so the Rangers are going to want the absolute most for what they give up and I'll certainly concede that Lee may or may not be worth the cost of admission.

[Slowhand]

I watch 80% of phillies games, I can tell you for the most part, his record isn't a great indication of his pitching this season. For the first 3 months of the season his era was pretty close to Hamels, who's had 10 wins at the time. Lee has gotten bitten by some awful defense, and no run support.
This past month he's struggled to locate a little, and has been very susceptible to giving up hits. I wouldn't be all that upset to see him leave for the right pieces in return. If Lee can't locate, he isn't a $25million per season pitcher right now.

I believe he had the worst run support in the league for the first few months, not sure if that's still the case.

You're right about the last part, though. The Rangers' ;decision has to be one of whether or not they think his recent pitching is indicative of what they'll receive or if his first half is what they'll receive. One is worth every dollar, the other isn't.

His age is also something to factor in as well. If he were two years younger than it's an easier decision, but he's starting to reach that point where he's closer to decline than he is plateau.

[Mike]

I believe he had the worst run support in the league for the first few months, not sure if that's still the case.

You're right about the last part, though. The Rangers' ;decision has to be one of whether or not they think his recent pitching is indicative of what they'll receive or if his first half is what they'll receive. One is worth every dollar, the other isn't.

His age is also something to factor in as well. If he were two years younger than it's an easier decision, but he's starting to reach that point where he's closer to decline than he is plateau.

Without a doubt the worst run support. He pitched a ten inning shutout in april and still got a no decision.
Lately he's been hit early, settled in for the middle innings, then started getting hit later. This is the same guy who had four CGSO this time last season. It's really hard to say what next season holds. Cliff will be pitching for the Phillies next season...

[Slowhand]

Without a doubt the worst run support. He pitched ten a ten inning shutout in april and still got a no decision.
Lately he's been hit early, settled in for the middle innings, then started getting hit later. This is the same guy who had four CGSO this time last season. It's really hard to say what next season holds. Cliff will be pitching for the Phillies next season...

Agreed. The last hour of information has really soured on the deal.

The Rangers also seem to think they need a bat/some more bench players. Why not hold onto Olt and bring him up for the second half and see if he can't contribute on a spot-start basis?

[SC457A]

Sure wish Trout would fail a drug test or something. That dude is killing MLB pitching.